Midst Toil And Tribulation – Snippet 06
“That is not the story you’re going to hear from Shan-wei’s slaves and servants.” Lainyr told them. “Already Shan-wei’s claim that the prince and princess were ‘rescued’ rather than kidnapped has set its poisonous roots in the credulous soil of parts of Delferahk. In due time, no doubt, it will become the official lie spread by the so-called Charisian Empire and its eternally damned and accursed emperor and empress. Yet the truth is far different. The Earl of Coris, charged to protect the Prince and to guard his sister, instead sold them to the same Charisians who murdered their father in Corisande. Indeed, some evidence has emerged to suggest it was Coris who provided the blasphemer, excommunicate Cayleb’s assassins with the means to enter Manchyr without detection in the first place. The Inquisition and King Zhames’ investigators have yet to determine how he communicated with Cayleb and Sharleyan of Charis from Delferahk, yet the proof that he did is self-evident, for the ‘guardsmen’ King Zhames allowed him to recruit to protect the legitimate ruler of conquered, bleeding Corisande instead aided in his kidnapping.
“And lest anyone believe for even one instant that it was not a kidnapping, let him reflect upon this. The Charisian agent who led in this crime was Merlin Athrawes himself — the supposed seijin who serves as Cayleb Ahrmahk’s personal armsman. The Charisian agent who, through the use of Shan-wei’s foul arts, massacred an entire company of the Delferahkan Royal Guard who sought only to protect Daivyn and Irys. Guardsmen who were sent to protect those defenseless, orphaned children on the direct instructions of Bishop Mytchail, Delferahk’s intendant, after he was forewarned of the threat by no less than the Grand Inquisitor himself. Father Gaisbyrt, one of Bishop Mytchail’s most trusted aides, and another member of his order, sent to be certain of the Prince’s safety, were murdered at the same time.
“At least two survivors of the Guardsmen heard Princess Irys herself crying out for rescue, begging them to save her brother from the same murderers who butchered her father, but Shan-wei has stepped more fully into our own world than ever since the Fall itself. We don’t know what deviltry she armed her servant Athrawes with, but we know mortal men found it impossible to stand before it. Before he was done, Athrawes had burned half Talkyra Castle to the ground and blown up the other half. He stole the finest horses from King Zhames’ royal stable, he and the traitor Coris bound Princess Irys — bound a helpless, desperately struggling young maiden — to the saddle, and he himself — Athrawes, ‘Emperor Cayleb’s’ personal servant — took Prince Daivyn up before him despite the boy’s cries for help, and they rode from the burning fortress where Prince Hektor’s children had been protected into the night.”
Lainyr turned his head slowly, sweeping the pews with bleak, cold eyes, and Thirsk wondered how much — if any — of the bishop executor’s tale was true. And whether or not Lainyr himself believed a word of it. If he didn’t, he’d missed a stellar career upon the stage.
“They rode east,” the prelate continued in a cold, flat voice. “They rode east into the Duchy of Yarth until they reached the Sar River. And at that point, they met a party of several hundred Charisian Marines who had ascended the Sar in a flotilla of small craft while the Earl of Charlz’ forces were distracted by the wanton rape and pillage — the total, vicious destruction — of the defenseless town of Sarmouth. A single platoon of Delferahkan dragoons intercepted the kidnappers, but they were in turn ambushed by the hundreds of Charisians hidden in the woods and massacred almost to the man. A handful of them escaped . . . and bore witness to the casual, callous murder of yet another consecrated priest of God who’d sought nothing but to rescue a captive girl and her helpless brother from their father’s murderers.
“And then they escaped back down the Sar to Sarmouth, where they were taken aboard a Charisian warship which will undoubtedly deliver them to Cayleb and Sharleyan themselves in Tellesberg.”
The bishop executor shook his head, his eyes like stone, and touched his pectoral scepter.
“It chills the heart to think — to imagine, even for a moment — what may befall those innocent victims in Charisian hands,” he said quietly. “A boy of barely ten years? A girl not yet twenty? Alone, without protectors in the same bloody hands that butchered their father and older brother. The legitimate Prince of Corisande, in the grip of the godless empire which has conquered and pillaged that princedom and given Langhorne alone knows how many innocent children of God over into the grips of its own heretical, blasphemous ‘church.’ Who knows what pressure will be brought to bear upon them? What threats, what privations — what torture — would such as Cayleb and Sharleyan shrink from inflicting upon their victims to bend them to their will?” He shook his head again. “I tell you now, my sons — it’s only a matter of time before those helpless children are compelled to repeat whatever lies their captors put into their mouths.
“And lest anyone believe this was anything other than the outcome of a long, carefully laid strategy, consider the timing. Daivyn and Irys were stolen away from their protectors at the very instant Greyghor Stohnar was plotting to sell Siddarmark to Shan-wei! Can you conceive of the consequences if he’d succeeded? Of how the credulous, the weak, among Mother Church’s children might have reacted to the simultaneous rebellion and apostasy of one of Safehold’s true great kingdoms and the ‘spontaneous and voluntary’ acceptance of the Charisians’ savage conquest of Corisande by its rightful Prince? And what boy of such tender years would withhold that acceptance with not simply himself but his innocent sister — his only living relative — in the hands of heretics and torturers?
“No, my sons, this was a meticulously thought out, organized, and executed strategy, as monstrous as it was ambitious, and while it may have failed in Siddarmark, it succeeded in Delferahk. The future ramifications of Coris’ treason and Charis’ ruthlessness are yet for us to discover, but I tell you now that we must be wary. We must be on our guard. The Charisians have Daivyn and Irys, and they will force them to tell whatever lies best suit Charisian purposes. We have only the truth — only eyewitnesses to murder and kidnapping and arson, to rape and pillage — and Shan-wei, the Mother of Lies, knows how to defile the truth. That’s a game she’s played before, one which led to the destruction of Armageddon Reef and mankind’s fall from grace into the captivity of a sinful nature, and we dare not permit it to succeed this time any more than Langhorne permitted it to succeed the first time. It’s essential that the truth be known, far and wide, and that no one be permitted to spread Shan-wei’s filth unchallenged. That’s the message Archbishop Trumahn sends us in the Grand Inquisitor’s name. As I stand here, the same message is being transmitted to every kingdom, every princedom, every cathedral, every intendant in all the world, and I call upon you as Mother Church’s faithful sons, to do your part in protecting the truth against the foul fabrications of priest-killers, regicides, blasphemers, and heretics.”
Silence hovered, and Thirsk stared back at Lainyr, refusing to look away lest those sitting closest see the disbelief burning in his eyes. Unlike any of the rest of them, he’d met Cayleb of Charis. He’d been only a crown prince then, not a king or an emperor, yet some qualities went to the bone, unchanging as stone and less yielding than steel. Ruthless with his enemies when he felt it necessary Cayleb might be — Thirsk knew that from personal experience, as well — but someone who could dishonor himself the way Lainyr was describing? Someone who would abuse or torture children helpless in his hands? No, not that king. Not that man, whatever the potential prize. That was what Zhasphar Clyntahn did, and Cayleb Ahrmahk would never stoop to Clyntahn’s level. Eternally damned heretic, apostate, and blasphemer he might indeed be, but always a man of honor . . . and never a torturer.
Lainyr gazed out across the cathedral’s pews for at least another full minute, then his nostrils flared as he inhaled deeply.
“And now, my sons,” he said softly, “I ask and charge you to join with me in a mass of intercession. Let us beseech Langhorne and Chihiro to protect their servants Irys and Daivyn even in the very hand of the ungodly. And let us also beseech the Holy Bédard and all of the other Archangels and angels to be with them and comfort them in this time of peril and trial. It is for us, their servants in this world, to free that brother and that sister — and all of God’s children — from the power of heresy and evil, so let us rededicate ourselves to that holy purpose even as we commend Irys and Daivyn to their protection and comfort.”
Wow, laying it on with a trowel isn’t he? The audience should all get awards for keeping straight faces. Laughing at this point would be a bad idea. I wonder how those serving with the likes of Stalin and Hitler managed it.
Hi Scott
I agree, and I wonder how many of the people listening to this garbage really don’t care because it doesn’t directly affect them, and how many have any real knowledge about these names of famous people that they’ve never met or even seen.
Thirsk is surprising me, though others here will not be surprised at all. I thought he would have bad memories about his treatment at the hands of Cayleb. He was after all totally crushed and given painful choices in surrendering. And Cayleb did some bragging then in order to convince Thirsk where his information had come from (I forget the names off the top of my head). But now Thirsk’s previous doubts seem to be coming together into a decision.
This is the moment for Cayleb/Merlin to contact him. But do they know that?
BM
By reflecting on what Stalin and Hitler, and Clyntahn, would do to them if they were noticed. It is a very sobering prospect
Gona be hard to stop Charis’ “Lies” with Merlin having Owl putting propaganda posters up everywhere right under the inquisition’s noses :)
@4 Adam: Merlin and the ‘inner circle’ CAN NOT publicly disseminate information faster than the worldwide known rates. That among other things would not only discredit said information but play directly into the CoGA supposition that Charis and Shan Wei herself are in league.
Remember that with the exception of the ‘inner circle’, ALL Safehold residents publicly hold Shan Wei as the root of all EVIL!!
Both the Church of Charis and the mainland Reformers are in conflict not with the doctrine (in almost all cases; AFAIK the main doctrine split is the Inquisition as a patent threat to induce obedience) of CoGA, but with many actions of the Go4; the still growing widespread corruption within the CoGA hierarchy; and the overstepping/abuse of Inquisitional authorities.
@2 BobbyM: Yes Thirsk was defeated, but by an honorable (albeit ruthless) foe.
Of all of Cayleb’s diatribe (whose description (paraphrased) of his fleet as rapists, murderers, and thugs for hire hit a tender spot with Thirsk; and yes was calculated soomewhat with the intent to sow disinformation) to Thirsk at Armegeddon Reef one exchange seems to have burned into memory (paraphrased): “Thirsk: ‘I simply served my Church and my King as honor dictated’; Cayleb(softly): ‘You need to find a better King’.”.
He has seen his King for what he truly is (and still attempted to honorably serve) and now has further proof shoved in his face of what his Church truly is.
@1 Scott and @3 jfenton: Anyone betraying ANYTHING but abject and total belief/approval (vocally and publicly) in what Clyntahn’s high minions are spreading as Gospel Truth will immediately fall under the cobra gaze of the Inquisition and most likely abruptly come down with a shortenend and unhappy lifespan with little or no chances for advancement at best. Even private dissentions had best be kept behind the teeth in any but the MOST TRUSTED circumstance!!
Rob
Correction: Remember that with the exception of Merlin and the ‘inner circle’ (and even they do so publicly!!), ALL persons resident on the planet of Safehold hold Shan Wei as the root of all EVIL (the divine corrupter; Mephistopheles and Lucifer combined; a divine Archangel only slightly lesser than Bedard and the others(much lesser than almighty Langhorne – the right hand of God Almighy) fallen by dint of the sin of pride and seducing others into her wayward path)!!!!!
Hi Rob
Forcefully stated.
So if I have it clearly, even though Thirsk was humiliated by his defeat at Cayleb’s hands, the foundation was laid for Thirsk to turn because he was treated honorably by Cayleb (despite language that was a bit rough). And later, when Thirsk had Charisian prisoners and was treating them honorably, his own king allowed the Inquisition to take them away, torture them to death and *brag* about it in a public display. And now when he hears this priestly diatribe that he cannot believe because he knows better from personal experience in both directions, it is simply more of the same: the side he has always been loyal to doesn’t trust him — though he has always been loyal — and behaves with dishonor, while the side he has fought against behaves with honor. I say it takes a real man to admit all that even to himself in the face of close scrutiny of himself and his family by the Inquisition that routinely tortures people to death. And he appears to be on the verge of doing something about it. Hurray for him.
I took it that Scott was saying that people *have to know*, have to have at least some idea that public statements such as they are hearing in this church scene are lies. I think that’s true, and yet you and jfenton are obviously correct that people with any sense (or just afraid) are going to keep their heads down and their mouths shut — and that’s so even though most people are not under the same threat that Thirsk is.
To take the other side, if I recall correctly Stalin was idolized by many Russians — he beat the Germans didn’t he? At the same time people in general had to know that there were such things as gulags and you didn’t want to go there. So, again, you keep your head down and your mouth shut.
And yes, as far as I’m aware there are very few people who are aware of who Shanwei really was: the inner circle and the one monastery. Two or three dozen maybe? Less? Yet people can believe in the CoGA and its holy book and distrust the current church leadership, so it isn’t *totally* hopeless. Change in beliefs can be gradual or generational. People my age remember segregation. Young people have no feeling for the reality of that time. On Safehold the current generation will give up their religion only reluctantly and slowly, if at all. But the next generation…
BM
Wow! Did I say “he has always been loyal” often enough?
@7 BobbyM: I agree that people at large can believe in CoGA wholeheartedly and still bemoan what the current hierarchy is doing!
In fact IMO the appearance/birth of ‘the Circle’, the mainland and non-Old Charis EoC Reformers, and even the Old Charis Reformers/Church of Charis constituents (though influenced through the years by Saint Zheroams?sp?) in this struggle is one of the few heartening events.
Even at Saint Zheroams knowledge of CoGA’s true genesis has always been limited to a very small ‘inner circle’. And until the inclusion of Merlin (and in some eyes VERY rapid expansion of the ‘inner circle’), IIRC ‘those in the know’ (of even the lesser knowledge burden: ‘the outer circle’) was probably less than a hundred people total worldwide throughout the history of Saint Zheroams after the opening of the letter and archived data (this in a population of Billions).
And I further believe that even Merlin is resigned to reforming CoGA/allowing schisms with the MULTI-GENERATIONAL goal of allowing the Truth to out and not destroy spiritual faith on Safehold.
Rob
at any one time throughout the history
We are back to are 50+ pages of filler that have nothing to do with the upcoming plot. Just like the first 53 pages of How Firm A Foundation. Did Destiny losing its rudder mean anything to the story? Guess what! two-thirds of this crap won’t either!
@5 Rob, the fliers being tacked up over night are not the product of of a central Charisian response. They are the product of “local” reformists all accross Howard and Haven. The fliers appearing the next day all arounds Dohlar and where ever else this speach is being given are being printed up by OWL, sure, but will be attributed to the local reformists/Charisian espionage ring. I suppose that OWL can respond to each and every G4 charge in one of 3-4 primary themes. If he varies those themes accross Howard and Haven, the end product will not look coordinated at all but the response to any lie will be immediate.
@1, 3 and 5. Gentlemen, take Rob’s position and now add all the fliers appearing in most major cities and many smaller ones (selectively located) all accross Howard and Haven as stated earlier in my post. What will the resluts look like? Will the Inquisition spend time and resources trying to track down the sources of all these fliers? If they do, they can’t deploy resources to do other things. Once the Inquisition is out and about, will planting fliers or suggestive evidence about their creation or distribution on selected individuals dusrupt the CoGA governance? A small endeavor that one of the brothers at St. Zherneau could easily manage with OWL’s help.
Tell a big enough lie, and people will believe it, especially if they have no reason to distrust the liar, because it’s too outrageous not to be true. Also, this is a classic emotional appeal, an argument to inflame emotions and thus sway opinions. Whatever else we think about the Church of God Awaiting, it does know how to make propaganda work for it.
@13, But in this particular case the basic point the bishop is making is valid whether or not you generally trust the CoGA. He doesn’t actually need a “big lie”. He’s just making the point than anything his listeners might later hear that is alleged to have been said by two children in Charisian hands isn’t valid evidence. And that’s a legitimate point.
Most people in that cathedral will never meet Daivyn, Irys, Caleb, or Clynton. And communications is entirely slow and indirect. They’re stuck going by heresay and personal observation. And in this particular case few of them have any relevant personal observations and regardless of who’s telling the truth the hearsay will predictably be that Daivyn and Irys denounced the Church and threw their support behind the EoC.
Anyone in the that particular cathedral taking this speach, or Irys and Daivyn’s later public defection to the EoC, as evidence for or against anything is pretty much just following confirmation bias, not evidence. The evidence will only be relevant where people can actually see and talk to the children and conclude based on personal observation that they AREN’T being compelled, and that will be back in Corisade if Our Heroes have any sense (seriously, send them there ASAP and let them have local guards picked by locals and talk to anyone they want to, that carries an assassination risk, but its the right thing to do anyway).
Thirsk has some personal knowledge of the personalities involved, so he can make a reasonable guess at what happened, but he’s not getting any new information here. Which I suspect is part of why @11 thinks this is filler. We’re not learning anything much new, and niether is Thirsk.
I think DW is setting context for what will happen next, i.e. what the “common folk” will hear, and at the same time get some insight into what Thirsk is feeling. I’m not sure how long it will be before Clytohn will replace Thirsk with a more “aggressive” commander – and after all the complaining, I hope the Duke winds up as the new naval commander. Unfortunately, Thirsk could also wind up imprisoned at the same time.
@11 I think the sequence with Destiny in a hurricane was a little self-indulgence on DW’s part: he wanted to write an exciting adventure sequence of man vs sea. I will agree that if you wanted to edit down the book, the whole sequence could’ve been replaced with a few sentences.
In general, DW has to set the context, in part in a way that a new reader won’t be totally lost. But yeah, the start dragged a little. I suspect that there will be some interesting stuff as the War of Siddarmark goes on.
— Bob G
Good points BobG.
Minor snerk, the next snippet starts an interesting counterpoint to the lies of the Temple. [Wink]
Hi all
Hey, great stuff going on here since I went to sleep!
I love the discussion of how soon information to oppose CoGA propaganda can be distributed in different areas, and how little the Inquisition (a small group compared to the Army of God) can do about it. Never thought about that before.
Yes, this is slow stuff so far. “The Fabulous Adventure Of Hektor And The Rudder” last book was apparently just character development that went on forever and carried the plot further not even one little bit. That is, for us non-sailors. When can we get characters we are interested in *doing* something again? It looks like the action in this book will be nonstop, so… start it up already!
It just occurred to me that Merlin is outed now, when even local churches are saying he is a demon (since our buddy the GI is broadcasting that idea worldwide now). All right then, Merlin, go for it! Whatcha got to lose?
BM
@16 Thanks Drak. I always thought DWs initial pages set the theme and foundation for the story. The remainder of the story is where he offers his variation of that theme. Quite often he revisits this theme in conlcusion. Very similar to Romantic style classical music. Very much Beethoven rather than JS Bach.
An issue for Thirsk is that his family is not safe from the Inquisition. He cannot do anything while they are effectively hostages to insure his compliance. In a very real sense he cannot even suffer a military defeat without his family being endangered or even killed. So he must bite his tongue and go on pretending.
There is another option for Thirsk that depends on Charis/Merlin. After the successful rescue of Irys, her brother and her guardian, he might hope for the same chance. He needs to think about it and about ways to get in touch with Cayleb, secretly of course.
@11
So why was Destiny in Charis instead of on station as per orders? Or would it make more sense to ignore why and just send her and the rest of her command off to the rescue? Instead we got a pretty rousing sea adventure, a glimpse into some soon-to-be important characters and we did not have to wonder what Destiny was doing back home. Why people think and act as they do, the results of their actions, and the effect of all that on the story are necessary ingredients in David Weber’s novels. You really gotta take it or leave it. Now I will admit that our author sometimes gets a bit long-winded (just read some of those infodumps, for example) but that is OK with me. I pay my money and make my choice.
r
For anyone who thinks this is “filler” on the scale of “Destiny’s broken rudder” in HFaF, have pity on those of us who were here to read the very SHORT snippets of it three times a week! It literally went on for over three weeks, to the point we despaired that the MWW would EVER get back to the plot, and the ranks were screaming for an editor! (If you WERE here with us, remember back to those painful, torturous days…)[G]
As has been said, it was the MWW indulging in a bit of nautical adventure, and other than getting us familiarized with the crew of the Destiny, which did indeed play two major parts in the plot when it lead the attack on Ithyria and later in the rescue of Irys and Daivyn, the whole chapter was downright boring. Granted, it fleshed out the character of Hektor a bit and taught anyone who was interested (the total of which I can count on the fingers of one true-hand) a bunch of nautical terms.
When it mercifully reached its conclusion we were left asking “So what happened?” until Drak took pity on us and wrote that the Destiny was safely en route to Tarot. (With nary a mention of Caleb checking in to watch over Hektor, which he tries to do daily!) With a tip of the hat to the MWW’s nautical and historical mastery, I don’t think we’re going to be tortured that way again! These longer snippets are actually an improvement in my opinion because we get more (or sometimes all) of a scene at once.
Although we’re already aware of the information presented here, it’s quite fascinating to see how the Inquisition is warping the true story so outrageously when it literally got caught red-handed trying to murder our young prince and his lovely sister. Yet as has been pointed out, it is easier to make an OUTRAGEOUS lie believable if you repeat it enough than a SMALL one. Keep in mind that this is THE ONLY SIDE OF THE STORY THE GENERAL POPULATION OF SAFEHOLD WILL EVER HEAR!
Sure OWL’s broadsheets will be on the walls of every major city in the next few days telling the truth, but only city dwellers will see those, and even then they have to read them quickly and furtively, then discuss them only among their most trusted fellows.
Remember, Owl has NEVER put up a broadsheet in Siddarmark so as to not give Clyntahn any additional “evidence” of Siddarmakan rebellion or reformist sympathies. By now Clyntahn must think there’s ARMIES of reformists writing, printing, and hanging these broadsheets, and that Charisian spies are everywhere since the unfortunate truth (or “Charisian propaganda”) gets disseminated on major subjects almost daily. This is especially true in Zion, which has GOT to be bad for his blood pressure and will cut years off his life! (We hope, except he’s doing SO much damage to the CoGA that in the long run Merlin couldn’t ask for a better adversary.)
It’s unfortunate that so many people will be murdered, tortured, and brutalized into toeing the Inquisition’s line in the meantime, but Clytahnn doesn’t understand “the power of gentleness” and “the tighter he closes his grip, the more Safeholdians will slip through his fingers…”
Princess Leia, Star Wars episode 4 “A New Hope”. (Bleek!)
Hi all
The CoGA is *The Source For All Truth On Safehold* ever since the archangels left. When the church says that there is a demon running around murdering innocent people, blowing up palaces, and *kidnapping and torturing children*, people by and large are going to believe it and be very very scared. This is *sensational* news. There is a World War going on, THE CHURCH ITSELF is split, and people are naturally paying close attention to the news, so *everyone* knows what the CoGA says about Merlin.
What is Merlin going to do, say “I really really REALLY didn’t do it!”?
Good luck with that.
So, the question is, HOW FAR CAN MERLIN GO NOW?
BM
BobbyM, please remember that Merlin has to worry about how people on Cayleb’s side view him as well as possible allies might view him.
Merlin is *not* going to play “Demon” especially when people really believe that Demons are real which is everybody on Safehold.
While the Temple stories about him may be believed, even Temple Loyalists may wonder about “how real the stories are”.
In addition, David Weber posted the following on his site so I think I can repeat it here.
I disagree — strenuously — that Merlin’s refusal to use advanced technology to accomplish his goals is the equivalent of Burke’s “good men to do nothing” aphorism. He is self-limiting in one respect for several reasons which I personally find valid. And the time may yet come when he decides — when he’s driven — to abandoning that self limitation. If it happens, though, in many ways it will be a betrayal of the entire story arc. It will also be a betrayal of what Merlin himself believes in. And, finally, I leave you with another tiny out-of-sequence snippet from the current book which may, perhaps, put some of Merlin’s own thinking on this point into context.
I’m not going to tell you who he’s talking to at this point. I don’t really think it matters, anyway.
—————————————————–
“There’s a term I’ve found in my research, Merlin — ‘combat fatigue.’ It’s a valuable concept. So is ‘survivor’s guilt’ . . . and I can’t think of anyone in the world — in the universe — with a better right to feel both those things than Nimue Alban . . . and you. You don’t have just Merlin Athrawes’ guilt and pain riding in your soul; you have all of hers, too. And you can’t keep punishing her — and you — for still being here while everyone she ever knew is dead, just as you can’t keep punishing yourself for what you’ve had no option but to do here on Safehold.”
“I can’t write myself a blank check,” Merlin whispered, closing his eyes once more, letting the rain wash over him. “I can’t be some omniscient, godlike being who goes around choosing the slain. This one lives — that one dies! I can’t just strike people down and tell myself it’s okay, that I didn’t have any ‘option,’ and that that absolves me of guilt or washes away the blood. Nimue Alban swore an oath to protect and defend humanity — protect and defend. She probably killed or helped to kill thousands, even hundreds of thousands, of Gbaba doing just that. And, yes, she was sick to her soul with all the killing and all the death and knowing that in the end it was all for nothing. But I’m still her, and I’m supposed to keep human beings alive, not kill them myself! If I decide my ‘mission imperative’ empowers me to kill anyone I think needs to die, I’m no different from one of Zhaspahr Clyntahn’s inquisitors. Maybe I’m better than he is, but I’m still doing what I do because I believe — genuinely believe —it has to be done. Isn’t that the perfect description of a Schuelerite?”
End Quote.
So ask yourself, what would “playing the Demon” do to Merlin?
You were just waiting for an excuse, Drak.
PeterZ, yep. [Wink]
Of course David Weber followed up that comment with another one about what the Inquistion would do to people in the “town” where Merlin secretly sabotaged something.
IE the Inquistion would assume that the townspeople were involved in the sabotage and we know that they “find” evidence even when it doesn’t exist. [Frown]
Oh, DW did say that certain people are on Merlin’s “to be killed if the opportunity arises” list. [Wink]
OK, as a sign of respect and gratitude, I will let you disseminate all those tidbits at your pleasure.
Lord knows the snerk collar is bad enough without a few bennies!
Hi Drak
Maybe you’re right. I don’t want to believe it, but maybe you are. RFC *is* in charge here. (And BTW, I call the author RFC because that’s what he calls himself. I think using his name, his initials, or what he calls himself is fair and polite. I wonder, though, whether Mad Wizard Weber isn’t offensive to him.)
It seems to me that Clyntahn has just made *another* strategic blunder. Everyone who believes *him* now believes that Merlin is a demon.
And there you have it. License for Merlin to do whatever he wants to do. I do not suggest that he should start tossing nukes around; I ask *how far* he should go. Suggestions have been made that he could spike a wheel here and there in the CoGA war machine to slow them up; no murdering involved. Why the heck not?
[By the way, HOW MANY PEOPLE has Merlin *personally* slain now? Thousands? It was hundreds in the first novel, cutting his way through to King Haarald and defending him. So I understand the bit about not wanting to add to that blood debt.]
Someone with more technical knowledge than I have could undoubtedly come up with thousands more subtle tricks Merlin could play. Again, why the heck not? I do not see where subtle tricks would hamper his ultimate goal, to free the minds of everyone on Safehold to face up to personal responsibility, build for their children’s future, and finally meet and defeat the Gbaba. Or add to the torture of his own soul: wouldn’t he be *saving* lives? Yes, I know, he *can’t* make it *too* easy, or he defeats his purpose. But I don’t think for a second that Siddarmark is going to be *easy*.
I agree wholeheartedly that Merlin should not descend from the clouds in full view in Zion and start preaching. I hardly think that would even work.
But can’t he loosen up even a *little*? Enquiring minds want to know!
I won’t ask what you know about this. Thank you for the information and commentary you provided.
BM
@19 Destiny and her squadron were actually in Thol Bay in Tarot for repairs after the battle of Iythria, and had been just been released from the dockyard the day before the orders arrived to rescue Irys and Daivyn. That put them much closer to Sarmouth Keep in the Kingdom of Delferahk than they would have been in Tellesberg. Everything else in your analysis was spot an and very well analyzed.
I wonder if the MWW showed us Thirsk’s response to the CoGA’s spin on the “kidnapping” of Daivyn and Iris to foreshadow that Thirsk is finally going to act. With the Inquisition watching his family it’s going to REQUIRE outside assistance to allow him to, but he’s just been given a clear example that Charis can pull it off. So how to contact Cayleb… (Hint: write in big letters with nobody else in the room “Help, my family and I want to defect!” Without being particularly SNARCy, that would work, ignoring charges of demonic aid, of course!) [G]
The second his family disappears he’s a dead man, so he’ll go with them. Many of us have been hoping he’d take the fleet and run, but with the CoGA paying the sailor’s salaries plus death benefits for their families, that’s simply not going to happen. The CoGA will end up paying a LOT of death benefits after the fleet is sunk and the entire city of Gorath is in ashes, but Thirsk’s relatives may not be on the list of beneficiaries because they’ve disappeared, and him with them…
Let’s hope we get to see all of that in THIS book! (Obligatory BLEEK!)
@26 MWW vs. DW vs. RFC. I’m active on the Weber Forums as McGuiness, (I wanted Mac’s name, but it was taken…) where we always always refer to David Weber as RFC, since his moniker there is “Runs for Celery.” (Which is why I’m REALLY upset that Nimitz was taken but at least I don’t have to add a BLEEK to every post there!) [G]
Since he doesn’t post here though, we don’t see comments from “Runs for Celery” and know that we’re reading the equivalent of the word of God when it comes to the universes he’s created. End of speculation, end of argument, the ultimate authority has spoken!
The term MWW is officially listed in the Forum Abbreviations thread on the Weber Forums, see http://forums.davidweber.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2968 (And I HOPE that doesn’t mess up this post.)
Over the past few books, RFC has been referred to in our discussions here by name or as the MWW or DW almost exclusively, be it Safehold, the Honorverse, or his Bahzell series. I’ve been calling him the MWW here because I didn’t know if everyone knows who RFC is. Sometimes it’s fun to imagine him cackling with glee (which he DOES!) as we race off in random directions analyzing his wizardly prose, so by using MWW in the context of “He’s in charge and we are clueless” we’re actually mocking OURSELVES as readers, often thinking we know more than the author does. (Someone once disagreed with one of his posts on the Weber Forums, and he replied “You DO realize who you’re arguing with?”) Hint: DON’T argue with the First Space Lord! [G]
David has a good sense of humor, so I doubt he’s upset by the MWW moniker. It’s been around for years on multiple forums, and I don’t know if he was RFC before the database change on his site back in 2009. (If someone knows, please enlighten me.) Granted RFC is a lot more fun, since it makes playful fun of treecats which are in my estimation one of his greatest creations, since when they laugh they say “Bleek!”
Hi Drak
Ah, I see that you commented on reprisals. Hoo boy, I can see that. You’ve got a good point there.
But how effective will that be? Aren’t people in Glacierheart *already* being executed and starved to death in the cold? You can’t make the bad guys *start* committing atrocities AFTER THEY ALREADY STARTED.
How about wheel spiking while coming through the mountains? Gonna execute *rocks*? And those darn mountain villages all seem to be empty now, AFTER OUR PREVIOUS ATROCITIES.
How about wheel spiking in ZION? Gonna execute *priests*? (Yes, I know, Clyntahn’s already done that. Is there an unlimited supply of loyal priests? Whether or not that’s so, why do we care about *them*? Remember, INNOCENT PEOPLE DIE IN EVERY BATTLE IN EVERY WAR, and Merlin’s already killed his share. I’m on the *Siddarmarkians’* side in this fight.)
How about spiking something or other during a major battle? Gonna execute *anyone* while the survivors are running away? Or after that territory has been lost?
How about putting small leaks in canal barges, just enough to slow them down. Subtle, remember? Gonna execute everyone in the countryside, when you have no clue *when or where* the small leak started? Yes, I know, that one’s weak. They could just pick any village to make their point. Still doesn’t seem likely over such a small thing.
“Oh no, we’re seeing a lot of misfires on the battlefield due to rust. Hey, lets have a great big reprisal, that’ll fix it!” Never mind that the soldiers who have rusty weapons will certainly be blamed for it. Any vets care to dispute that?
Suppose a collegeboy prank was played on an effective enemy commander, and he had loose bowels at a bad time. Again, after you’ve lost, who ya gonna execute? Didn’t Merlin cause a certain Vicar to break his leg once?
How’s this for subtle: certain military orders get tiny changes made in them without anyone noticing. Monitoring message traffic in real time also has the advantage that *some* clever tricksies would be discovered in advance. SNARCs will sometimes catch tricky orders given orally; actually reading messages will enhance that. You argue that there often is no *time* to take advantage of such information? There is when you change their orders for them. Remember, they are a *long* way from home, with a very long message path for orders from Zion. (I don’t believe Clyntahn won’t mess with this somewhat. He’s so good at long distance screwups.) Even on the battlefield, transmitting orders is absolutely critical. All it would take is just a teeny tiny hesitation to make a difference. And you have to take advantage of what you can get. These people will be *aggressive* because they are fighting a holy war. All right, let them aggressive themselves right into fixed cannonfire with their altered orders. (Hmm. Wouldn’t you be certain there was a way for the cannons to withdraw when setting up such a trap? Anyone?)
And after the merely human add up the casualties, will they think to themselves, “Boy, I sure am glad this was so easy because we’ve got a demon on our side!” Ask General Claryek whether he thought it was *really easy* after Merlin told him exactly where and when the cavalry would arrive. But, boy oh boy, be sure Merlin doesn’t ever do anything like that again! It wouldn’t be *fair*!
My point is that “subtle” defeats the tendency to commit reprisals. And they already are committing atrocities, anyway.
And generating this list off the top of my head was easy. Real experts could do a much better job.
So there, Drak! I’m bloody, but I’m not down yet!
BM
BobbyM, Yep innocents die in war-time.
But when you’re an immortal unstoppable PICA, you worry about “little steps” toward becoming what you’re fighting against.
Maybe Merlin is “worrying too much” but I’d rather he worry slightly too much than getting into the habit of thinking “it doesn’t matter what I do because my motives are good”.
Remember that if Merlin “goes to the Dark Side”, nobody can stop him not even OWL.
I have this image in my mind of the “immortal” seijin talking to Cayleb’s great great grandchild saying “I find your lack of faith in me annoying” and Merlin triggers the medical nanos to kill the unfaithful Emperor.
Hi Nimitz13
Thank you very much for the information.
When I was deciding what to call the Man, it struck me that “MWW” was rude and might be resented. I’m afraid I would resent it if applied to me.
Your help is much appreciated.
BM
@27 and @28 Nimitz13: As much as I can hope that Thirsk manages to get his family free and run, I don’t see things going that well for the good guys.
At best, I am hoping that Merlin can manage what was done for the Wyllsynns (spouse and close relatives free and clear to Charis and principles notably/publicly dead before torture/use-as-a-martyr). I know that MWW doesn’t like to directly repeat, but minor variations on the Wyllsynn scenario (making Thirsk more a martyr/icon of honorable action working for a most dishonorable system; as AB Dynnyss?sp? tried to be at his execution) done with his own special curlicues would once again contrast the opposing sides for others on Safehold.
Siddarmark is going to be a NASTY MESS; where descents into savagery/evil-acts by ALL sides will tend to blur black-and-white/good-and-evil into a sickening gray.
And Battles are going to cost more (to both sides; if unequally) as technological advancement increases bodycount (and unlike in Corisande where the tech-mismatch was greater, but codes of honorable war were in effect) and the tacit blessing of worst actions (even encouraged by Clyntahn’s minions and the Inquisition) will free many of humanity’s demons that should have stayed bottled (especially as pure survival reaction will encourage the same in reprisal/revenge (hopefully though, along with delineating the major difference between the two)). Things will only get nastier!!!!
And with the Clyntahn approved/encouraged terrorist tactics being employed both in the EoC (now including Tarot as well as Old Charis, Chisholm, Corisande, Zebediah, and Emerald) and in Siddarmark (regretably by now by both sides) by CoGA, while the EoC seems to have self-limited to valid/justifiable military targets (and just reprisal (i.e. Ferayd)); things are not looking up for our white-hatted heroes.
And Thank you for the rundown on the Weber nom-de-plumes!!!
Rob
So -Like WOW dudes: # 18- Peter Z for the Beethoven and Bach reference # 20- Nimitz 13 for quoting Princess Leia
@29 BobbyM: I am afraid I agree with Drak on this one.
Such use/(near outright abuse) of Merlin’s possibilities would IMO thin the knife-edge that Merlin (or anyone else given offensive control (vice recon capabilities) of his assets) is trying to safely traverse to impossibility.
One of my greatest fears is that Merlin/Nimue will temporarily-snap/cross-that-metaphorical-line and not be able to find the way back!!!
I am assuming (and you know what that means) that you have no personal knowledge of that slippery slope (and may you thank whatever your personal god is if you don’t!). IMO the view is much different if you have.
Rob
Hi Drak
Whoa. If it was anyone but you (or the Man) I would say “Oh ye of little faith!” in Merlin.
I agree, your point about the slippery slope is well taken. So… [sarcasm alert] let’s be very very careful not to slip, and let’s drag this incredibly bloody worldwide fight involving quite possibly every human being alive on out just as long as we possibly can. Let’s not do the things we’ve done in the past, like be a leg breaker and pass information on enemy troop movements on to the good guys, and *most certainly* let’s not expand on that even the tiniest little bit, even though the point of concealing Merlin’s capabilities is now completely gone (anyone who believes in demons will believe anything about them). Not that I would suggest that Merlin should start doing tricks in public. [end sarcasm] Oh yes: Just sayin’! (That seems to be the modern way to make it all better after you’ve been rude.)
But I’m not bitter!
Anyway, you cheat. Knowing what will happen is no excuse! I maintain that my points are valid, that past deeds on Merlin’s part *already* justify more of the same without endangering Merlin’s soul, and that further taking advantage of his capabilities (within limits) adds little or nothing to that danger.
The only justification I see for NOT expanding Merlin’s activities *in the slightest* is to keep the suspense going. I just don’t see Merlin being all that vulnerable, so I reject that argument. As someone on tv said, “I reject your reality and substitute my own.” Not that I watch much tv (maybe you can tell).
Perhaps you’re saying the risk to Merlin — and all of humanity — is just too great. Nope, don’t buy that one either because of the tricks he has already pulled every time he draws a sword or gives advanced knowledge to others.
I agree that you are *absolutely right* that no one could pull Merlin back if he went rogue.
So — How long is Merlin prepared to wait, how many deaths must occur, how much human misery must there be, if he does nothing effective now? If Siddarmark goes down, is that ok? Just the breaks? How good would that be for Merlin’s soul? You talk about the risk of going too far, how about the risk of not going far enough?
I think Siddarmark will not fall. I think Merlin will do what he has to do to guarantee that. I think Merlin’s soul will be just fine after this war. And I think the Gbaba are going to get a rude surprise, possibly within a couple hundred years. (Safehold is already roughly in the 19th century and advancing rapidly. With Merlin’s assistance how quickly can they get back into space? Some future book will deal with The Platform Of Death Above and The Thing In The Basement.) Disagree with anything in this paragraph?
Catching my breath here! I disagree with you Drak (at my peril, of course) but it sure is fun!
BM
@26,28, and 31: Could he be called the Mad Seijin for the Safehold books?
Hi Rob
@34
[Omitting personal history here that probably no one will want to read.]
Conclusion: Keep on fighting. Never give up. If you lost someone, find someone else. There is always a way. There’s really no problem at all, despite what you’re thinking. Stop looking down and start looking up. (This one’s true both in the religious sense and in the physical sense. Your thoughts automatically change for the better. Try looking up, breathing deeply and putting things into perspective when you’re upset.) Stop thinking whatever the bad thought was by thinking of something good, like a long, long hug.
So will Merlin lose his soul? Miss watching the baby princess growing up? Not a chance. Have a little faith in Merlin. Merlin’s a fighter. Merlin never gives up — even when a suicide mission is all that’s left to do. Merlin has something to fight for, short and long term. After Clyntahn is barbecued, there are still those crazy aliens to deal with. And his new extended family to care for. That’s why I mention the baby. You think forever childless *Nimue* doesn’t have a tight connection with her?
I can hear it now. “But that’s exactly how Merlin might go too far and lose himself!” Baloney. RFC can do whatever he wants to do, and if that’s what he wants, then I’ll believe it when I see it.
You asked!
BM
I’m beginning to think the subtitle for this book should be “the fight for Merlin’s Soul”.
— Bob G
@38 Bob G: Could be a Keeper!!!!
@37 BobbyM: I found my way back and am sure Merlin/Nimue could too (however many times neccessary)!!! Cynicism/pessimism does still raise its ugly head though. I applaud your faith in Merlin, but my assumption (again proving the truism) was predicated on how slippery that slope can seem.
Rob
And if nothing else Nimue/Merlin has self-doubts on that same score (remember her thoughts in OAR about the courier ship).
Rob
ALL RIGHT Rob, Bob G! There you go!
I couldn’t *possibly* be right. Drak has already said so! I suspect that Drak is now silent because he CAN’T speak further, so that leaves it up to you. I still don’t see where I’m wrong, but I HAVE to be.
What’s the situation now? Stohnar and his troops are out there all by their lonesome and an unholy army of massive proportions is on the way. They have few modern rifles, and not many are trained with them. They are for the time being fighting against THEIR OWN PEOPLE and they’re rapidly running out of food. Sure, they’re great pikemen, but so are the other guys. I haven’t heard that they have any cannons at all. Talk about a mismatch. They are going to get creamed again and again until help arrives.
You see why I want Merlin to fly there today and help out incognito? And you want to take him away from me because he might have a doubt or two?
Wow. I think you can do better than that.
BM
I always wonder how the Go4’s policies will come back to bite them in the er, rump. This one should be pretty obvious, when Devyn goes home…and shortly thereafter, every single Charisian Marine leaves Corisande.
BobbyM, there are times when people recognize that another individual can not be convinced. Wise people then don’t bother trying to convince those individuals. You’re wrong but I’m tired of trying to convince you of anything. In addition, you’re getting annoying and I’m trying to avoid giving you the response that you trying for. IE I’m about to lose my temper.
Hi Drak
You got it.
Byebye.
BM
@33 tootall, the Beethoven comparison is apt. However, Aldaraan did slip through the Empire’s fingers like so much dust. Clyntahn wouldn’t mind most of the Charisian Empire and Republic of Siddermark falling between his fingers in the same way.
Is the cover art for this book any indication that Merlin is using advanced technology in battle? What do you make of it? Is the Recon Skimmer being used in gound attack mode? Who is flying it?
Bill O, all of the cover art for this series have had some element of “High Tech”.
The presence of the Recon Skimmer on the cover means little about what happens in the book.
IMO it is just there so somebody would know that the book isn’t about Early Modern warfare. [Smile]
@41 This post is in large part one big BM. Use a medical text to find my referrence of a BM.
BobbyM, you said yourself this group is nice. Please return the favor.
off on a tangent, does anyone know of a critique of the MWW as a writer, looking at style, etc rather than content?
thanks
I have been a regular reader of snippets here for some many many months now, and I especially enjoy the debates in the Safehold series threads, but I very rarely ever comment on/in them. However, after reading this thread and the as of this writing 49 comments in it I find myself compelled to do so. Regarding the comments by BobbyM and Merlin’s now apparent freedom to use more advanced tech to move things alongs to shorten the hman misery argument, while I see the logic to an extent I find myself solidly agreeing with Drak and company for much the same reasons already expounded. My reading of the Merlin/Nimue character does show an increasing loading of trauma to the mind/soul, and this is something that as it accummulates tends to multiply in nature/impact, and is not merely additive in nature, this is well known these days where stress/trauma research is concerned. Weber is clearly writing a real human character in Merlin/Nimue so I would argue that “having faith” in Merlin Nimue’s character is more shown by acknowledging this than arguing it is a sign of not doing so as BobbyM has been doing.
However, there is another aspect I feel BobbyM is if not overlooking entirely is seriously underweighting, and that is just how hard it will be to truly free the minds of the general populace even without the open use of “Demonic Powers”, (which btw I would argue it is best for Merlin to avoid also because as time goes on and more and more demonic powers are ascibed to him without something rooted in reality the more the use of it could come back to bite the CoGA as time goes on) that to try and do it all within a generation is an unlikely accomplishment to be doing. I’ve been suspecting we shall see the further corruption of the CoGA and the increasingly ugly fighting between it and the EoC/Reformist movement until the return of whatever is under Zion in 20 years and then and only then would I find the use of Merlin’s tech to make any sense, and the battle there (if that is the direction Weber will go, he could as easily decide that the Zion entity is appalled at what Clynton did to the point of deciding that maybe Pei and company were right after all, I rule little out with Weber, it is one of the main reasons I love his work so and have for the past 20+ years now)for the soul of the planet and showing who is really in “Shan-We’s pocket” (you shall know them by their works/deeds even more than there words I believe to be a basic human sorting system no matter what theology/ideology one is raised it, but that is personal belief).
Look, I could go on and on about this, but I suspect Drak is right about BobbyM in terms of his having taken a strong position and clearly favouring it despite the reasoned disagreements made by Drak and others to it, and I am not going to start a long series of arguing with him about it myself. I simply am adding my voice in the Drak side of this equation because I do think the arguments made there make much more sene to me in their underlying premises both in terms of humanity in general and in terms of how Weber creates/writes. One of the things that makes Merlin such a refreshing powerful character for me is how much both his mission’s circumstances and his personal ones makes him both very powerful yet very limited if he wants to retain any humanity within him/herself as well as to truly free the human race from the shackles placed upon it by Langhorne and Bedard. It would be and has been for many other authors all too easy to overuse such characters in what I personally call Deus mode to the detriment of plot and/or character development. Weber has IMHO done a fine job of avoiding that trap with Merlin/Nimue to date and I doubt it is going to change anytime soon (at least I certainly hope not!)