Midst Toil And Tribulation – Snippet 05
.IV.
Gorath Cathedral,
City of Gorath,
Kingdom of Dohlar
“Therefore, with angels and the Archangels, and with all the company of heaven, we glorify your glorious Name, evermore praising You and saying, holy, holy, holy, Lord God of hosts, creator of all the world, Heaven and earth are full of Your glory. Glory be to You, O Lord, our maker. Amen.”
Lywys Gardynyr, Earl of Thirsk, signed himself with Langhorne’s scepter, rose from the kneeler, and seated himself in the richly upholstered pew with a suppressed grimace for the soft depth of that upholstery.
He’d been raised on his family’s estates, far from the Kingdom of Dohlar’s capital city and its cathedral, and he really preferred the plain, wooden pews of his youth to the glittering luxury of Gorath Cathedral. Of course, he preferred a rather plainer and less ostentatious lifestyle in general than that to which the wealthy and powerful of Gorath treated themselves. He’d found that distaste for ostentation becoming steadily more pronounced where religion was concerned and he felt it now, even though he had no choice but to acknowledge the magnificence of the cathedral’s architecture, statuary, and stained-glass. There was no denying the glitter of its altar service, the smoothly gleaming perfection of its floor, paved in the golden stone for which Dohlar was famed and set with the Archangels’ personal sigils, the majesty of its twin scepter-crowned steeples. He’d made his obligatory visit to the Temple in far-off Zion, and he knew Gorath Cathedral was but a smudged copy of the very home of God on earth, yet despite its smudges, it towered high into the heavens to the glory of God and the Archangels. And despite his cross grained preferences, its beauty was almost enough to help him forget, at least momentarily, the war being waged for the heart and soul of Mother Church.
Almost.
Now he watched Bishop Executor Wylsynn Lainyr lower his hands from the upraised position of supplication and turn from the altar to face the sparsely occupied cathedral. He crossed to the pulpit and stood behind it and its gold and gem-encrusted copy of the Holy Writ. But instead of opening the splendidly illuminated volume, he simply folded his hands upon it.
Thirsk looked back at the bishop executor stonily, face carefully expressionless. He didn’t like Lainyr. He hadn’t especially liked Ahrain Mahrlow, Lainyr’s predecessor, either, but he’d found himself deeply regretting Mahrlow’s heart attack, especially when he’d found himself increasingly at odds with Lainyr’s policies and the way the bishop executor had insisted upon treating the Charisian prisoners who’d surrendered to him. He’d heard the details of what had happened to those same prisoners after he’d been ordered to surrender them to the Inquisition, as well, and those details had filled him with a cold and bitter self-loathing. He’d had no choice. It had been his duty, and triply so: as a noble of the Kingdom of Dohlar, charged to obey his king’s commands; as the commander of the Royal Dohlaran Navy, charged to obey his lawfully appointed superiors; and as a son of Mother Church, bound to obey her commands in all things. And then there’d been his duty as father and grandfather to do nothing that might give Ahbsahlahn Kharmych, the Archbishopric of Gorath’s Schuelerite intendant, an excuse to cast his family to the same Inquisition which had butchered those prisoners of war.
He knew all of that, and none of it made him feel any less unclean. Nor did he expect what was about to happen here in this glittering cathedral to change that.
He glanced to his right, where Bishop Staiphan Maik, the Navy’s special intendant, sat between the Duke of Fern, King Rahnyld IV’s first councilor, and the Duke of Thorast, Thirsk’s immediate superior. Maik’s face wore as little expression as his own, and he remembered the auxiliary bishop’s advice to him the day the peremptory order to surrender his prisoners had arrived. It hadn’t been the advice he would have anticipated out of a Schuelerite, but it had been good.
Better than I realized at the time
, the earl thought grimly. Especially since I hadn’t realized — then — just how closely the girls and their families are being watched. Purely for their own protection against crazed Charisian assassins, given my role in handing the Charisian Navy the only defeat — modest though it may’ve been — it’s ever suffered. Of course.
He felt his jaw muscles ache and forced himself to relax them. And the truth was, he didn’t know which infuriated him more — the discovery that the Inquisition and the Royal Guard had decided to “protect” his family to make sure they remained hostages for his own obedience, or the fact that he couldn’t truly decide even now whether or not he would have continued to obey if his family hadn’t been held hostage to ensure he did.
It’s supposed to be clear-cut. Black and white — right and wrong, obedience or disobedience, honor or dishonor, godly action or service to Shan-wei. I’m supposed to
know where my duty lies, and I’m supposed to do it without fear of any consequences I may suffer for doing what I know is right. And in any other war, it would be almost that clear-cut, almost that simple. When one side tortures prisoners to death and the other treats its prisoners decently, without abuse or starvation or the denial of healers, it should be easy to know where honor and justice — yes, and God and the Archangels! — stand. But this is Mother Church, the keeper of men’s souls. She speaks with Langhorne’s own authority in our mortal world. How dare I — how dare anyone — set his merely mortal, fallible judgment in opposition to hers?
That was a question too many people had been forced to confront in the last five years, and the sheer courage — or arrogance — it had taken for so many of them to decide against Mother Church filled Lywys Gardynyr with mingled horror and awe. A horror and awe made only deeper by the growing hunger he felt to make the same decision.
No,
he told himself harshly. Not against Mother Church. Against that sick, murderous son-of-a-bitch Clyntahn and the rest of the “Group of Four.“ Yet how much of that anger of mine, that hatred, is Shan-wei’s own snare, set before me and all those many others to seduce us into her service by perverting our own sense of justice? The Writ doesn’t call her “the seducer of innocence” and “the corrupter of goodness” for nothing. And —
“Brothers in God,” the bishop executor’s voice interrupted the earl’s thoughts. All eyes focused upon him, and he shook his head, his expression grim. “I have received directions from Archbishop Trumahn, sent from Zion over the semaphore, to speak to you about fearful tidings. It’s for that reason I requested all of you to join me here in the cathedral this afternoon. Partly because this is by far the best place for me to give you this news, and partly so that we might join in prayer and supplication for the Archangels’ intervention to protect and comfort two innocent victims of Shan-wei’s spite and the machinations of sinful men who have given themselves to her service.”
Thirsk felt his jaw tighten once more. So he’d been right about the reasons for this unexpected gathering of the kingdom’s — or, at least, the capital’s — highest nobility . . . and the senior officers of the Dohlaran army and navy.
“I’m sure that by now all of you, given your duties and your sources of information, have heard the wild tales coming out of Delferahk,” Lainyr continued harshly. “Unfortunately, while there may have been little truth in much of what we’ve heard, there has, indeed, been a basis for it. Princess Irys and Prince Daivyn have been kidnapped by Charisian agents.”
A rustling stir ran through the cathedral, and Thirsk snorted as he heard a handful of muttered comments. What is it actually possible some of these men hadn’t heard the “rumors” Lainyr was talking about? If they were as poorly informed as that, the kingdom was in even more trouble than he’d thought it was!
Wow, I read Thirk’s character right!!
Why is it that only Clyntahn isn’t doing any soul-searching? OTOH I guess you first have to have a soul (not sold it as a useless appendage good only for what it can purchase)!
Re @1 – I think ‘sold’ isn’t quite the right word for this context; ‘discarded’ might be better. Or perhaps ‘trashed’.
:-)
They’re probably going to blame Merlin…sigh. As if he doesn’t have enough troubles.
How much have people on Haven and Howard heard about Merlin at this point?
So how does the CoGA benefit when both they and the EoC have declared Daivyn the rightful heir to the throne of Corisande and the EOC sends him home after “kidnapping” him? Will the CoGA claim “brainwashing” or some such rot when Irys screams to the heavens that the CoGA murdered her father and brother and tried to murder her and Daivyn – and would have succeeded without Charisian intervention? This isn’t going to play well, and Corisande is going to be ecstatic to get their prince back, regency council or not. (And it is a Corisandian regency council, not Charisian.) Clyntahn is going to have a stroke when Corisande enters the EoC as a province quite happily in a few years – presuming Duchairn or Pandys hasn’t murdered him by then!
It DEFINITELY looks like Thirsk would defect if his family “disappears.” Time for Anzhelique and Merlin’s alter ego to make an appearance!
This would make the Navy of Dohlar’s chances even more Bleek!
(I’m REALLY getting tired of these Bleeking punchlines! [G])
Clyntahn did not sell his soul, he gave it away because of the inconvenience.
@5 Nimitz13: Irys and Daivyn have to survive to make it to Corisande in the first place. And with Clyntahn’s growing expertise with assassination, that really isn’t all that much a given. NTM keeping them all alive in Corisande.
By sending him home, I am assuming you mean to Corisande (not to any relatives or CoGA custody on the mainland).
And Coris (and even quite possibly Irys) will be taking his place among the Regency Council (and IIRC many of the Temple Loyalist/terrorist underground and some of the traitorous (to the Council; their declared and followed loyalty is to CoGA (and most likely catspaws of the Inquisition are in place by this time)) lords have been arrested and removed already).
This public result IMO Clyntahn CAN NOT allow to stand!
AFAIK Corisande is already a province of the Empire of Charis; ruled currently by a Regency Council (made up of Corisande lords) for Daivyn (who is the declared heir (by both CoGA and the EoC); but only if present on Corisande soil and under no duress). (As Nahrmann Baytz (and now his son) rules Emerald; the Marine General is now the new Ruler of Zebediah; and the King of Tarot will soon swear allegiance. (The co-emperors are both subordinate sovereigns under the EoC as a whole))
IMO Thirsk’s position is more precarious by the day as those he has trained take up the standard (without his sense of honor or hesitations towards Clyntahn’s new CoGA). His only support (Maik?) is being slowly supplanted as well by Clyntahn’s soul-brothers.
He would make a GREAT Martyr to the cause!!!
And his insistence upon training his officers fully means the Navy of Dohlar would suffer little from his Martyrdom in most people’s eyes. And would get rid of someone persistently right when his BETTERS were wrong (and displaying an unneccessary softness (pensions and regular pay for sailors; treating prisoners as POWs (not Heretics to be killed as outrageously as possible) until forced (publicly) to surrender them to the Inquisition)!
Daivyn, Irys, Coris, and Thirsk are IMO all now in Clyntahn’s ‘better as dead martyrs’ category (probably joined by the King of Tarot and the AB of Glacierheart) and may actually gain a place on his ‘kill at all costs’ list (which includes rulers within the EoC and Siddarmark). (And if Clyntahn could publicly tout the killing of the remaining Wyllsynns and other escapees (only admitting their escape after public declaration of death) he would be estatic!)
Rob
The King of Tarot has already sworn alliance.
As for Corisande, it is conquered territory not a true member of the Charis Empire.
As for what happens next … [Wink]
This snippet suggests that Dohlar is on Charis’ hit list and Clyntahn knows it. The “protective” detail around Thrisk’s family suggests that Clyntahn does not want any surrenders. No surrender and no mercy.
Clyntahn has a soul. He has morals. He simply is excercising the moral paradigm that Eric Langhorne laid out as the basis for the CoGA. That paradigm begins and ends with obediance to the dictates of the Church. God and the archangels’ admonishments of how to be good are simply suggestions. The important element for Clyntahn is the authority to do as he pleases and the obligation of Safeholdians to obey his dictates. Exercising that authority is his God given right as Grand Inquisitor. How can he be immoral if he is doing what God allowed him to do as Grand Inquisitor? How is he selling his soul to Shan-wei if he is exercising his just power over the body that God invested with His authority? Re-read Thirsk’s mental musings. He acknowledges the G4’s authority to do as it does.
Seriously, all this simple demonization of Clyntahn’s character takes away from his evil and his humanity. He is simply following the rules laid out by Langhorne and adapting them logically to suit his purposes. His evil is that he accepts no restraint to his actions, even when such restraints are suggestions from God and the archangels. He asserts his will over that of everyone else, including God’s.
# 4 While the “man on the street” may know little about Merlin- I’m sure the movers and shakers do. And “Demonizing” Merlin, would make good press.
# 5 MWW has been saying for sometime that Irys would make a better ruler than either of her brothers, that Hector thought about changing the sucession laws. Could be Daivyn doesn’t even want it. So Cayleb may call her in one day and announce that he’s decided NOT to install Daivyn as Prince. He has a better candidate- Daivyn’s older sister- which will leave her sputtering. Irys as Prince…oh my.
Tootall, IMO the best way for Cayleb to make Irys an enemy would be to bypass her brother by making her the ruling Princess.
Everything we’ve seen about her shows that she loves her “baby brother” and see him as the True Prince of Corisande.
Of course, if something happens to Daivyn, then she’d be the best choice for the ruler of Corisande.
Still, if she does become the ruler of Corisande, I would not want to be the person responible for what happened to Daivyn (or who she thinks is responible).
Iris and Coris on the regency council?
If they return to Corisande, Coris would likey be on the Regency Council. Not sure about Irys getting on it, but IMO she should be.
As long as Daivyn is a minor it doesn’t really matter how good or bad a ruler he’d be. If he reaches his majority and hasn’t shaped up as a good ruler on his own then it’s quite possible he could have a successful reign as his sister’s puppet as long as he’s willing to be a puppet.
Kicking him out to put Iris in would be putting form ahead of substance in a way that will annoy people, he should inherit if he lives.
If he dies then Iris and whatshisname presumably get to be Prince Consort and Ruling Princess (or something similar) if he dies. Which doesn’t bode well for his survival since Weber’s been pushing that romance hard, but neither of them really needs the title, they’ve got others and can get more. If nothing else, someone will need to take over as secular lords of at least some of the church lands once the EoC conquers them, I doubt that the EoC will let the “Knights of the Temple lands” retain too much secular power.
I believe that the previous prince of Corisande considered both Irys and Daivyn as superior to his eldest son and heir, whose name eludes me for the moment. . . Hektor? He considered, or at least wished he could, change inheritance laws to place Irys ahead of Hektor because Hektor was just not suited to be a ruler of a princedom in crisis. I’m pretty sure he mentioned that neither Irys nor Daivyn was lacking in the way Hektor. Thus, I see no serious reason (yet) to displace Daivyn in favor of Irys. This is particularly true because Daivyn is younger, and likely at least a little less steeped in the Corisandian culture of hostility to Chisholm and Charis, while Irys has barely emerged from her haze of blind hatred to recognize that Cayleb was framed.
We just don’t know enough about Daivyn to know whether he’ll be a good ruler, a great one, or something worse. I think suggestions of disinheriting him are premature at best.
Rakenan, Irys & Daivyn’s father was Prince Hektor (his eldest son was also named Hektor).
While there is plenty of evidence that Prince Hektor preferred Irys over his eldest son, I don’t remember any evidence about his opinion about Daivyn as compared to his eldest son.
As for Irys, she had come along way from her “blind hatred of Cayleb”.
Her opinion of Cayleb changed greatly after she met Merlin.
As for disinheriting Daivyn, I agree.
Not only would it cause problems in Corisande, it would extemely annoy Irys. [Smile]
The time lag still will effect how this plays out. Even after they are safely (we hope) ensconced in Tellesburg, it will still be a couple of months before news of it reaches Corisande. Unless they let Irys go there, there will still be questions until a representative of the Regency Council travels to Tellesburg, interviews them, and returns. Still, it will probably be received fairly positively even initially, and if Irys and Daivyn write to confirm the story, it may go a way towards making peace.
I am curious how the CoGA will morph this into an attack on Siddarmark. Will they discuss Merlin and his demonic weapons, then assert that the Republic is a obvious ally of Charis, and so Charis needs to be prevented from gaining a foothold on Haven and Howard?
I will suggest that if assassins to take out Sharleyan and her daughter, Merlin and Cayleb may lose it and use a “multi-megaton city-burner” to take out Zion. And I’m not sure they would be wrong.
— Bob G
@9 Peter Z: In no way do I feel Clyntahn is a simple (or simplistic) villian: Venal – little more than many of the corrupt CoGA members we have seen; self-serving and self-delusional – quite so, but it has allowed him to reach the near-peak of his vaunting ambition; a spiritual soul-brother to Bedard and Langhorne – oh yeah; hypocritical dichotomy between personal and perceived ideals – actually IMO less so than many protected/sheltering under the wing of the Inquisition; sympathetic/empathetic impulses – little to none (to me it seems other humans do not exist for him other than as how they interact as backround players in the magnificant mythos that is his existence); and so on. Soulless – not really (nor inhuman (nor even inhumane)); but Evil – not only ‘oh yeah’ but a resounding “HELL YEAH” !!
IMO what is worse is that he is not a root source, but more of an exageration/refination of CoGA’s dark core. Justification by God’s will is after all an excuse as old as humanity itself.
His ability to self-justify almost anything (and even more frightening to allow/encourage others to unlock/fling-open their own inner cages) is what magnifies his evil the most in my eyes!
And worst of all IMO is that Clyntahn’s martyrdom would (in many ways) make little or no difference to the current spread of evil (even taking out Zion in a surgical nuclear strike (as Commodore Pei took out Langhorne, Bedard, and many of their “angelic” supporters) would merely slow the disease and cause untold/unknowable collateral damage). (Even Armegeddon Reef and the stylized straitjacket CoGA was built as could not totally contain Shan Wei’s truths after all!!)
Rob
@18 Rob, my post was not directed at any comment you posted. On the contrary, I find myself in near compelte agreement with you where Clyntahn is concerned.
I just wanted to caution those quick to quip that Clyntahn had to be inhuman to be as evil as he is. He is very human. He still has his soul. AAMOF, he is so evil because he has a soul. The man believes in God, just like the devil does. The man knows what good is expected of him as written by God’s very own archangels. He believes to his core that God exists, His archangels created Safehold, wrote the Writ, and created the Church to be the Stewards of Safehold. Never doubt it.
Yet despite that moral certainty, he sets his will above that of the God he knows exists anyway. Not believes exists in some purely emotional way, KNOWS exists in that there is physical proof. This man knows at a deeper level than any earth born human ever can, that there is an absolute purpose and absolute good to creation. The embodiment is God. Knowing this he STILL asserts his limited will above God’s stated will.
Sorry if this sound preachy, I don’t mean it to be. I just marvel that I have encountered a character that is truly evil. Evil in that he KNOWS what good is better than I can know, yet still eagerly trespasses beyond the bounds(limits) of goodness and into the realm of evil. No mere charicature can achieve this. Only a fully formed, intelligent and well informed character can.
Dear Great Dragon Drak,
Far be it from me to argue with a Bibliophile,(especially one who has SEEN into the future and -except for a tightly attached snerk collar -could enlighten those of us less knowing)
1) MWW has done a fair amount of foreshadowing Irys as Prince. (not princess)
2) She could always abdicate once her brother came of age.
3)She’d be really good at it.
4)That move would set up interesting plot points down the road.
5) Coris- who knows her best-appears to believe in her
Just sayin.
On point 1, David Weber seemed to be “foreshadowing” Admiral McQueen as the Honorverse Napoleon but then killed McQueen off.
Just saying… [Wink]
THEY KILLED McQUEEN???????
point taken
When plot looks to go left…
Expect a right.
(It will then go straight ahead instead….)
I’ve never felt it to be “foreshadowed” that Irys is “prince”. If anything, quite the opposite. Matter of fact, once her brother is back in Corisande, replete with an extremely competent Regency Council already in place, there is no reason for her to remain there–and every reason to set out to wreak her revenge upon the people who murdered her father. In other words, The Empire of Charis gains another competent operator dedicated to bringing down the GoF.
This snippet leads somewhere, and I’m not quite sure just where. What’s next? “Oh, so since Charisians have started kidnapping, we’re having ALL of your families ‘protected'”?
Hmm. Well, a little redundant, since Thirsk already knows his family is being watched.
Rookie poster here, and thank you very much for being kind regarding my ramblings.
Yeah, like that will work. Forgot to hop on one foot.
My Analysis of Clyntahn’s Character and Evilness
Clyntahn is a brilliant thinker who made his way, first, all the way up the church hierarchy to the Gang of Four — the true rulers of Safehold through the church — and then became the unofficial head of the church and all church-obedient nations (what is that now, 70% or so without Siddarmark?) on Safehold through his domination of the Go4. His tactical skills in political maneuvering — i.e., inside a bureaucracy — are presently unmatched. But he has two terrible weaknesses: he is so very clever that he has convinced himself that he *cannot* be wrong, and he has little or no human empathy.
I know some very clever people who persist in sticking to ridiculous opinions and apparently believe them. They are so very good at arguing in favor of their opinions — the valid as well as the invalid — that they seem to believe that they win *all* disputes just by the vigor of their arguments. “See? I vanquished my opponent, so I must be right!” I do not refer here to myself, of course, never think it.
Clyntahn rationalizes his whims and desires, and distorts all unpleasant truths to fit them. This causes his strategic thinking to be oftentimes ill advised and sometimes incredibly self destructive. It isn’t that he can’t outthink most opponents; it is that his planning is fatally flawed because he convinces himself that his fantasies are true. In short, he is a tactical genius and a strategic nincompoop.
In lacking empathy Clyntahn is equivalent to any mass murderer in history. He kills because he enjoys it, and concern for his victims never enters his mind. He truly believes that the only purpose of his victims’ existence is to provide him with the feeling of power he gets by killing them. Before OAR, he probably got that feeling of power mostly by outmaneuvering his political opponents in the church hierarchy. Now his scope is much wider and the feelings of power are intensified and more pleasurable than they were — similar to taking larger doses of a narcotic. Like the Terminator, he won’t stop, he won’t ever stop, until he is destroyed.
I don’t believe that Clyntahn is in any real sense religious. Rather, he uses religion only because it was his path to power. He often states religious rationalizations in public, but only because such statements have always worked well for him, not because he actually believes.
And so, it is obvious that he will be the prime cause of further massive deterioration of the power of the CoGA (and further massive loss of life, which is a big plus in his mind) as long as he holds power, and *then* he will be killed (dead, deceased, destroyed, finished, folded, stapled and mutilated, six feet under, getting a steamship-load of coal in his Christmas stocking, sitting in the office waiting to see the principal (been there, done that), displayed on a pike over the temple gate, worm food, put down, eliminated, scratched from the lineup, benched permanently, going for the long drop without countergrav, belching his last belch, listening to the choir Satanic (Shan-wei-ic?), displaying his shabby underwear to the EMTs, standing up in class with no clothes on, pining for the fjords, buying a farm in the Temple Lands, watching the eternal sitcom, flattened skunk grease on the highway after a giant convoy of steam-powered tanks has passed by, a shrimp sizzling on the barbie, getting his heavenly report card from Saint Peter, shaking hands with the Gbaba, the first one brave enough to run up behind Merlin and tug his cape, meeting Langhorne up close and personal… Sorry, I get… never mind). And, naturally, I fart in his general direction.
Ahem, but is Clyntahn really EVIL?
Two definitions I found:
A) Evil is the violation of, or intent to violate, some moral code.
B) Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful.
I suggest that by A he is *not* evil because he violates no moral code that he recognizes. Indeed, he pretends that he is *supporting* the moral code of mother church. Still, try to explain that reasoning to his victims.
Clearly by B he is evil.
I conclude that he is INSANE and that “evil” isn’t as good a fit, because he truly believes himself to be on the side of the good. (I said he’s delusional, didn’t I?)
Clyntahn is — as Hitler was — a man of great strengths and great flaws. The tragedy here is that he was able to achieve such enormous power, because it was inevitable that he would abuse it in hideous ways. This is exactly what Langhorne and his followers arranged for Safehold with their false religion.
So, will Clyntahn — like Hitler — die in a bunker underneath the temple, committing suicide by poison, as the walls shake from the artillery overhead?
Nah.
Hello, BobbyM
Well written (except the list of killed-isms may be over the top :^)
It does raise one question/issue, however. It is generally desirable for “the bad guy” to see the error of their ways when they are defeated, but that isn’t going to happen with such a sociopath. So I have to wonder what kind of end of Clyntahn can DW write that won’t be anti-climatic? I mean, yes, DW has been telegraphing Duchairn’s ultimate overthrow, but then what? Will Clyntahn have a counter-strike prepared? Will he be subjected to the punishment of Schuler himself? Will he have discovered some sort of self-destruct and pull a Sampson-like destruction of the temple? Will someone activate the Temple, only to find the AIs horrified at what Clyntahn did (or pleased?) Will there be an assault-shuttle full of Earth-tech Marines invading Zion and the Temple, to face ?what? A pair of Gababa scouts arrive? Will a “Trojan Horse” vest-pocket nuke detonate inside the Temple and destroy everything inside the dome?
I’m really curious about what sort of endgame DW plans for the first half (?) of the series.
Knowing DW’s writing, I’m sure he initially envisioned Clyntahn’s end, but, just like Honor Harrington’s originally planned death, DW has been known to change his mind.
— Bob G
Hi Bob G, thank you for taking me seriously despite my attempt at humor. Maybe no one else will care for it, but I cracked myself up generating that list. Sorry.
By the way, I put in a G with greater than and less than signs here and there in my first post — and one long comment too — and none of them made it through. I assume that was due to html. Big oopsie, that S/B [G]. Rookie mistake.
Bob, I love the point you raised about Clyntahn’s demise.
I see three possibilities that are more likely than any other.
1) Duchairn
2) Merlin
3) Clyntahn stumbles into more than he can handle
Does anyone seriously believe that Clyntahn will go down either easily or soon? Absolutely not: Clyntahn is not Beria (Stalin’s buddy), and we love to hate him too much to lose him now. It’s a fact that the CoGA has to be removed or at least enormously altered before we can move on to the Gbaba campaign, and Clyntahn is the perfect one to guarantee that removal or alteration for us. And I, at least, am in no hurry to move on to the Gbaba campaign; I love these characters too much for that.
DUCHAIRN
An attempt on Clyntahn by Duchairn wouldn’t be good for Duchairn’s longevity, and he will certainly fail to take Clyntahn out — now at least — because Clyntahn is absolutely necessary and there is no one in sight to take his place. Duchairn may fall at any time at RFC’s discretion, but Clyntahn will not unless someone or something can be found to replace him as the focus of villainy. The only thing I see so far that can do that (replace Clyntahn) is The Thing Under The Temple. If Duchairn ever does manage to kill Clyntahn, it will probably be posthumously, by his supporters’ revenge. And then… Saint Duchairn! [G]
RFC is more likely to have Duchairn try, fail, and be killed by Clyntahn than try and succeed. And that would be a three hanky scene indeed.
And darn it, I keep typing Duchairn as Ducharin!
MERLIN
Merlin is quite likely to be the one to do Clyntahn in, and that would certainly be satisfying for me. It would be reminiscent of Theisman and Saint Just in the Honorverse, but RFC will not simply copy what he has done before. This killing will vary significantly from that one, but just how it will vary is anyone’s guess. Merlin could simply kill Clyntahn easily the first time he gets an opportunity. Merlin could be seriously damaged in fighting The Thing From Below The Temple, and then kill Clyntahn as Clyntahn gloatingly tries to finish him off. Merlin could decide that it was necessary to invade the temple itself (possibly due to Rakurai attacks worldwide) and yank Clyntahn from behind whatever protection he has there and kill him. There are so many possibilities here.
CLYNTAHN TRIGGERS THE THING IN THE BASEMENT AND IT KILLS HIM
Another quite likely possibility. Clyntahn may know more than he is telling about the prehistory of Safehold; there have been hints of it in the textev, though that could be just my imagination. Perhaps he knows only of weaponry that Langhorne’s people left behind in the temple. That weaponry, whatever it is, would be beyond his experience, beyond anyone’s experience save Merlin. He could trigger some “magical” weapon and be consumed by it. Or an “angel” could arise, see the damage that he has done, and kill him in anger. Or Clyntahn could take important hostages and while he battles with Merlin (using that magical weaponry) one of the hostages knifes him from behind. The mind boggles at the possibilities here too.
RFC is in total control of his work of the imagination. He has a pattern of planning a series and then getting caught up in it and extending it far beyond his original plan. FWIW, in the little fiction I have written (none published) I had that experience. I began writing without a detailed plan for my characters, and they picked up my vague ideas and developed them quite independently, without my conscious control. They came *alive* for me. So I suspect that that is what is happening here. RFC loves these characters even more than we do. He almost certainly already knows exactly where he is going, the points he is making, and what will happen to each character, but in the event he discovers that his characters have minds of their own. So can we happy readers successfully predict what will happen next? Sure we can, when pigs fly 747s underwater backwards and upside down.
BM [G]
BM (G)
“THE THING IN THE BASEMENT” – That’s good
“The thing in the basement” works for me.
I think, however, you may be underestimating Duchairn. With the invasion of Siddarmark, all the Sword of Schuler and inquisition forces available will be sent into battle – leaving the Temple Guards. And Duchairn has a list of all the ones loyal to Whylsyn. And I have strongly suspected that his watcher killed Whylsyn under Whylsys’s orders, to prevent his capture. I think he was high in the reformist ranks, and with his watching Duchairn, …
They do need to take out Rayno as a first step, minutes ahead of the coup, to keep counter-efforts from coming into effect. A classic coup. Heck, they can even say Merlin did it after the fact…
— Bob G
I have a poetic fate for Clyntahn. When Merlin and Charis take over the Temple, they simply incarcerate him. Then stick him in suspended animation, cryosleep, whatever you call it. Then, when they have the tech up to snuff…they send him on a ship as…Official Ambassador to the Gbaba. ;)
Hi Bob G, you think too fast for me. It takes me hours to write these things. And I bow to your greater memory for all the forces RFC has at play. I try to keep it simple, and concentrate on major events, because that’s all I can do.
In the new novel, MT&T, there is in my mind only one big event that has to take place: Siddarmark has to be successfully defended. Others have written clearly and at length about how that will be done, including the major premise for it that I see: Thirsk and his fleet have to be eliminated first.
Imagine Thirsk with shell-armed ships defending church shipping bringing supplies and men to support the forces in Siddarmark. As someone in the Honorverse named Helen might say, even a baboon would be dangerous in shell-armed ships! So that cannot be allowed. If Thirsk turns his coat, wonderful, but I doubt that will happen quickly enough. If he turns and brings his fleet with him, then that is that, but if he comes alone, the fleet must be destroyed anyway. Who knows who the next admiral will be (probably someone trained by Thirsk), and how good he will be (well after all, where did Thirsk come from?). No, Thirsk’s (isn’t that a mouthful) fleet has to be either destroyed or captured, and soon.
Should Gorath and others be flattened? Absolutely, whenever time and resources allow. But it isn’t likely that there will be any such time and resources available while the Siddarmark campaign is in progress. Or maybe I’m wrong on that, and it won’t take all that many ships with the newest generation artillery to accomplish the deed. We can hope.
Why should Siddarmark be so important? Others have said it better than I can. Siddarmark is the EoC’s beachhead on the mainland. Think of Midway in 1942. Most of the fighting and dying was still ahead, but after that it was island hopping all the way to Japan. D-Day might be a better example. After the loss of Siddarmark, that beachhead will have to be made somewhere else, and it will be difficult to do, even disastrous. Think of Eisenhower worrying himself sick on June 5-6th.
Though I’ve said that Siddarmark is the focus of this new novel, I can’t help but hope for Hektor taking an ironclad up a river — he did do well up that river (Sarm?) in the last novel, didn’t he? — but he’s still so darn young. There’s this: if RFC decided that should happen, then it did because he could find a way.
It occurs to me that there has been no hint (I haven’t heard of any such hints) of a major character dying in this novel. Assuming there is none, will someone important be badly hurt?
As to Duchairn and his chances against Clyntahn, I can’t disagree with your points. And I have noticed that RFC has forces at play that he hasn’t spelled out for us yet, such as Major Phandys(sp). All I can say is that I think the chances that Clyntahn goes down soon are very very little and even less, because that takes away our big climax, the final defeat of the CoGA. I think that RFC is more likely to make us weep over Duchairn’s death than cheer his victory.
Good to talk to you.
BM
Hi JeffM
“Official Ambassador to the Gbaba”? Hilarious! I love it.
BM
There’s another possible ending for Clyntahn, and it would be … interesting.
Clyntahn’s a glutton. He’s overweight (perhaps obese), and early on in the series (OAR) we received hints that he has large (and perhaps perverse?) sexual appetites also.
Clyntahn could just die of a heart attack in bed (with, perhaps, a woman of dubious virtue or, scandalously, with the widow of one of the bishops or archbishops) just at the moment when it looks as if the CoGA could win it all. The enormous power vacuum that would leave could (I suggest inevitably would) lead to the collapse of the CoGA.
Just a thought. Your criticisms and witticisms are welcome.
Hi, Robert H. Woodman
Wow. Absolutely fabulous.
It had never occurred to me that the CoGA might actually come close to winning it all. After all, the first five novels have been a continuous string of humiliating defeats for the church. But that is exactly the kind of 2×4 from nowhere that RFC would like to whack us over the head with.
It seems to me that if the church does actually come close to final victory then all of my assumptions about the future of Safehold are suspect. As you suggest, even Clyntahn’s final slither to his well earned reward in the great viper’s nest in the sky could be completely different than I have imagined.
Just wow.
BM
***WARNING, RANDOM PLOT COMPLICATION/IDEA. *** NO KNOWN RELATIONSHIP TO ‘REALITY'”
RE: the Arch-angels”: The surviving command staff (along with suitable re-inforcements from NEAT-ly reeducated colonists had all piled on board the remaining starship for a 1k year cruise. When they return we find that Schuler led a coup against the remaining command staff. He and his minions become ANOTHER group to replace the Alexandrians (as some of his “support staff” were Shan-Wei re-educated.) They (and their decedents) spend the time of their cruise in R&D, etc and will show up, turn Clynthan and Co into charcoal briquettes, find/join Merlin and rouse the people of Safehold to “man” the PICA crews of a roboticaly built fleet that had been under construction in an out-of-the-way dead starsystem.
Chuckle Chuckle
KenJ, talk about “Deus ex machina”.
That’s almost a literal one. [Very Big Grin]
Ergo, It won’t happen. :)
Still fun to try to come up with ways it COULD occur though…..
Hi KenJ
I thought *I* had an imagination.
BM
Well KenJ, if your version of Schuler had won, why did the Safehold Church remain?
Now, if Schuler had lost but managed to escape with the remaining starship, then you have the problem of “why didn’t he return sooner?” Just a few hundred years (not a thousand) would have “killed off” the remaining Archangels and he would have “reformed/destroyed” the Safehold Church before Merlin/Nimue woke.
KenJ
DON’T LISTEN TO DRAK!
Schuler had to get rid of Chihiro first. (The TRUE fanatic of the survivors and probably the one we met in OAR just as Commodore Pei Nuked the first “temple” area.) Schuler needed time to let his conscious work through his trauma from the Gbaba war. It was discovering some of the reeducated Alexandrians as part of the Shipboard crew that finally allowed him to see that:
1) the original plan would fail.
2) there would need to be time for the flaws inherent in Langhorn’s setup to come to fruition allowing a chance of success challenging the “true history/Plan”
3) rumors that the Pei’s had “Something Else” hidden away. (Jere Knowles had found about Nimue, why not someone else too.) which would be a possible ally when it comes to reforming/restoring the truth.
As for why they didn’t return: Who Knows! ;) Perhaps the Nav coords were lost due to damage during the takeover. Or, they knew they needed time for their research VR brains and Robo-Factories to come up with the needed Tech and produce enough of it before trying to return because once they start restoring tech, it might become a homing beacon for the Gbaba to Safehold if they tried to bootstrap the infrastructure locally. Better to have the resources assembled elsewhere under Max stealth in a life-lethal starsystem where the Gbaba would be less likely to look.
Just Ideas off the top of my head.
BTW that is Conscience, not Conscious :P
Oh, and the Coup takes place on the ship.
KenJ: Other than the fact he is a possible ancester for the Wyllsynns, why Schuler as your returning hero?
Are you thinking the conversion of Saul to Paul in the Christian mythos?
IIRC Schuler was the author/researcher/driving-force behind a mandated/requiring structure of some of the most heinous acts one human can perform upon another!!!
Chihiro has already been mentioned (in OAR) as the architect of the Temple at Zion and the amender of the CoGA original writ (where Commodore Pei was still a good guy (in CoGA’s eyes)).
AFAIK the temple construct did not exist prior to Langhorne’s and Bedard’s immolation by nuclear cleansing.
Also AFAIK Schuler’s Order (as home to much of the Inquisition) was in the forefront (along with Chihiro’s (who only later lost precedence to Schuler’s Order) Order) in the ‘War of the Angels’ (that AFAIK CoGA history has spun and downplayed as much as possible to avoid the impression of a civil war instead of the side of God and the Angels against Shan Wei and those she has seduced to her EVIL)!
And IIRC the final dispensation of some of Nimue’s fellow travellers (Shan Wei’s minions) has not yet been set in stone!
Rob
Hi all.
Do I understand it correctly that the problem in the defense of Siddarmark is that the numbers against them are so huge? So that, even though the Siddarmarkian loyalists are fighting on their home ground, such elementary tactics as encouraging your opponent to split his forces up so you can defeat them in detail just aren’t going to be enough? Even with some superior weapons already in their possession and aid coming from the EoC?
And what about the winter weather? Will that hold things up long enough for help to arrive? How much help will arrive?
I suspect that we are going to have a protracted race here: who can get sufficient force to the right place at the right time, and how soon will TL (or AoG, or whatever) forces begin to run out of supplies and ammunition?
Good leadership frequently makes the difference, and Merlin and Cayleb will be there, right? Will they be in charge in the field? It doesn’t seem like that would be easy to arrange in Siddarmark, even though they are allies. Could they at some point reveal their position to the enemy in order to draw them out of position and into a trap (such as new generation rifled artillery waiting for them)? It seems that would be the best use for rifled artillery, hitting them when they’re moving in restricted ground. But not so easy if they have scouts all over the place, right?
Begins to look like Siddarmark is going to look like France in November, 1918.
Amateurs with no military experience would like to know.
Comments?
BM
@45 BobbyM: Rather than 1918 France IMO it would be more ACW with CoGA as the Union, Siddarmark the Confederacy (with slaves and union-allies as Temple Loyalists but greatly increased), and the EoC as a much more involved England.
Don’t forget Siddarmark was started as a civil insurrection (Temple Loyalists and unhappy provincials vs Stohnar’s forces) as well as the invasion by CoGA forces (looking soon to be followed by neighboring Kingdoms invading)!!!
Though it IS the spin which Clyntahn conceived, the ongoing/upcoming invasions ARE in support of natives revolting against their (in their eyes) ‘Shan Wei bound’ government!!
SIDDARMARK IS GOING TO BE A MESS!!!!
Think ACW Missouri/Kansas on steroids combined with the Winter War (Finland/Germany vs Russia) combined with terrorist tactics from both sides, all compounded by religious fervor and the inborn knowledge that ANYTHING they might do (their darkest desires and nightmares) will be BLESSED BY GOD and not wiegh on their soul in the afterlife.
Rob
Hi Rob
Thank you a lot.
I hadn’t thought of the ACW, and I’m not familiar with the Winter War. Nor had I given any consideration to the religious/terrorist/devil worshipper angle.
I wish you hadn’t mentioned neighboring kingdoms invading.
Oh my, this IS going to get ugly.
I’m thinking now about the quality of leadership on the other side. In Corisande Cayleb and his marines went up against well led regular troops. Cayleb used geography and sneaky moves in the night in addition to superior arms and tactics to defeat superior numbers on their home ground.
Do the CoGA forces have experienced leaders and soldiers, or are they just barracks soldiers and militia who may have only a little pirate/rebel fighting experience (or some mixture)? It makes a huge difference whether you’re going up against a Koryn Gahrvai or a drunk. The drunk leading the barracks soldiers are basically a mob, not the same thing at all.
Do the CoGA forces have cavalry? And are the breechloading rifles available yet?
BM
@47 Bobby M: Siddarmarkian Pikemen (the pre-Merlin epitome of Safehold forces) will be on both sides of this conflict (think how many of the Confederacy’s officers were West Point grads with excellent careers pre-ACW).
And Temple Guardsmen forces will be presumably well-trained and well-led (it like the Chisholmian Army, Siddarmarkian Pikemen, and Charisian Navy/Marines was a PROFESSIONAL armed force; that does not mean it won’t have its share of idiots/fools/slackers though (even the former mentioned forces had their share of those)).
And AFAIK all land-based Safehold forces (remember until recently Charisian Marines were not considered a land-based force and even they had some calvary capability on which to draw) had Calvary capability. (This time around Bedford Forrest and Stonewall Jackson might be working for the CoGA.)
EoC/Stohnar’s biggest advantage IMO will be the tendency of the Inquisition priests (like their master: Clyntahn) to interfere with the smooth running of operations (like commissars and some Russian ops) and the imbedded cronyism/nepotism inherent to the CoGA supporting Kingdoms (look at Thirsk’s boss in the first attempt at Charis and the overall plan as well).
EoC/Stohnar do have a current technological/manufacturing edge (narrowing quickly) but at best they are on the short end of an 85% – 15% population/possible-production-capacity bias with their production/breadbasket separated (in varying long supply chains by water in addition to the needed land/canal final supply chains) from the fronts/starvation-zones. There is an ongoing thread in ‘Honorverse’ on BaensBar that addresses this (I suggest you check it out). At least in Safehold’s scenario neither CoGA nor EoC/Stohnar has railroad superiority (no RRs), but Canal/River control is probably hotly contested.
I do not believe breechloaders are in production by either side as yet, but the concept is available to EoC (doesn’t even require Merlin AFAIK). (Remember it went: Fore/aft rig; trunnions; standardization; coppering; flintlocks; rifling; explosive shells/grenades; indirect fire (mortars); armouring; and so on.) (And as Weber is also co-author with Flint on 163x-series, he is well aware of the less dangerous potassium chloride vs fulminate of mercury primer production. (I understand there was a lot of headslapping/mea culpas when it surfaced over there))
Rob
Hi Rob
That was very helpful. Do you sleep occasionally?
Forrest and Jackson on the wrong side here? Ouch.
Where the heck are my breechloaders? Trickling in late in the game?
RFC really has it stacked up against the good guys. I thought we could expect some incompetence to assist us when we’re so heavily outnumbered. Oh well.
I don’t do details well in this area, ignorance of important historical subjects does that to you.
Thanks, Rob. You’re providing substantive answers.
Hmm. Makes me think RFC is going to run out of major obstacles for the good guys soon. After CoGA land-based forces get shredded in this novel, what is left? (Even though Siddarmark gets devastated.) We can expect some sea action in this novel as well (going our way as usual). What else is Nynian doing now (she’s always ahead of the game)? How long can Clyntahn last after this war is lost?
Somewhere, someone commented that RFC doesn’t do cliffhangers. Huh? What did he do with Siddarmark at the end of the last novel?
BM
@35
I have wondered, with Terran technology, what would have happened if a ship with a fabricator, a library, and AI support had also escaped the Gababa, and headed off in another direction for many years. Could they have found a metal-heavy system, and built machines to build a fleet? Even if they had to keep moving, they could have continuously built a larger and larger fleet. They might have occasional fights with the Gababa, and while they were whittled down, it would have kept the Gababa from a more strenuous search for Safehold. And then, one day, scouts from the Fleet stumble across Safehold…
BTW, if you really really want to be ridiculously vindictive to Chlytahn, capture him, implant him with the implant tech available before the exodus, and then place his personality in a Hellish (literally) AI environment. Cryo him for a decade while his personality faces all the people he killed, then restore him. I wouldn’t do it (what’s the point?), but the thought is nasty-amusing.
— Bob G