BY HERESIES DISTRESSED – snippet 9:
“In what way, Master Qwentyn?” one of his other guests asked in guarded tones.
“It seems evident that the Grand Inquisitor’s objective is to minimize contact between potentially apostate Charisians and the citizens of the Republic,” Qwentyn said calmly. “One can hardly draw any other conclusion from the his directives, not to mention his explicit instructions to the Lord Protector and to the other heads of state of the major mainland realms. The possibility that the consequences of his directives may very well exceed his intentions clearly exists, however. It’s been suggested to me that perhaps it would not be inappropriate for those of us deeply involved in international trade and investment to consider ways in which certain of those unanticipated consequences might be minimized.
“For example, the Grand Inquisitor has specifically directed that our ports are to be closed against any and all Charisian-flag vessels. None of us, I’m certain, would ever even consider setting our own will in opposition to the commands of the Grand Inquisitor. However, his directives refer specifically to the realm where a ship is registered; there was nothing in them which pertained to where a ship might have been built, or even where its cargo might have originated.” He smiled benevolently at his listeners. “My own House has recently signed a long-term lease-purchase agreement by which we have taken possession of several dozen Charisian-built merchantships. Since the agreement is a lease-purchase, it’s obviously in our best interests to secure our ownership interest in the vessels, especially in these troubled times. Accordingly, their registries have been transferred from those of the kingdom in which they were built to the Republic, where their current owners are located.”
Eyes narrowed around the table as his guests digested that. It was true that the Grand Inquisitor’s orders had specified the seizure of Charisian-owned vessels. If ships were no longer registered in Charis, and if their owners were no longer Charisian subjects, then the letter of Vicar Zhaspahr’s commands would no longer apply. Still . . . .
“Have you discussed these ‘lease-purchases’ with the Chancellor’s office?” the Charisian-accented guest asked slowly.
“There’s been no need to involve the Chancellor in such routine transactions,” Qwentyn said tranquilly. “Obviously, his office is aware of them, however, since it’s responded most favorably and promptly to our requests to expedite the registration of the transfers of title.”
“I see.”
The Charisian and the others seated around the table digested that, as well. Given the fact that the vessels themselves would be useless without crews to man them, and given the fact that the Siddarmarkian merchant marine was virtually nonexistent, a rather delicate question arose. After several seconds, one of the other guests cleared his throat.
“I can well appreciate how the transactions you’ve described would go far towards meeting the Grand Inquisitor’s desires while simultaneously providing the necessary bottoms to keep essential commerce moving. My own shareholders might well be interested in participating in similar transactions, but, alas, we do not possess a stock of trained sailors from which to provide crews.”
“As a matter of fact, that presented certain difficulties to us, as well,” Qwentyn said, nodding gravely. “We determined that the simplest decision was to hire the additional sailors we required. In fact, the sellers were kind enough to provide us with the trained seamen we needed. The simplest solution, actually, was simply to hire the passage crews who delivered the vessels to us. Obviously, they were already familiar with the ships in question, and the majority of them had no objection to sailing under Siddarmarkian colors. One ship is very like another, after all.”
Eyebrows rose. It was abundantly clear that the legal maneuver Qwentyn was describing was no more than a paper transaction. And if that was clear to them, they felt confident it would be clear to others. The possibility that Zhaspahr Clyntahn would be . . . unhappy when he learned of it appeared significant, but it was obvious Qwentyn was, in fact, acting as the Lord Protector’s messenger in this instance. And while it was undoubtedly true that the Grand Inquisitor’s wrath and the disapproval of the “Knights of the Temple Lands” was not something to be lightly contemplated, it was also true that the Lord Protector was far closer to them. With winter closing in, it was even conceivable that some five-days would pass before anyone in Zion learned of this particular maneuver. And if — or when — Vicar Zhaspahr learned of it, the Church’s long-standing policy of not pushing Siddarmark too hard would undoubtedly come into play. The most probable negative outcome would be a forced repudiation of the “lease-purchases,” and it was highly probable that the Republic’s diplomats (and law masters) would be able to spin even that out for months. Months during which the official owners of the vessels in question would be making money hand-over-fist in markets where the general reduction in shipping would enforce scarcity and drive prices steadily upward.
And if the Lord Protector’s administration was prepared to pursue this arrangement, who knew what other arrangements it might be prepared to sanction, as well?
Several eyes slid sideways, towards one of the guests, in particular. He was neither Charisian nor Siddarmarkian, and his tunic sleeve carried an embroidered crown surmounted by crossed keys. The crown in question was orange, not white, which meant he was a senior bailiff for a member of the Council of Vicars, and not some lowly archbishop or bishop. His presence had been unexpected, and more than one of the other guests waited to hear him denounce what Qwentyn had just said.
Instead, he simply frowned thoughtfully. If he felt the intensity of the regards directed at him, he gave no sign of it, but after a few moments, he nodded.
“As you say, Master Qwentyn, the consequences of the exclusion of Charisian-owned shipping have already been profound. And, like most of the people in this room, I’m responsible for serving the best interests of my patrons. Clearly, the upward surge in prices is making that significantly more difficult. I feel quite confident that my employers would wish me to explore every possible avenue by which those rising prices might be controlled. I think this lease-purchase arrangement of yours has a great deal to recommend itself as a means whereby the Grand Inquisitor’s directives and intentions can be given effect without bringing about a total collapse of our maritime commerce or imposing disastrously high prices. In fact, it would seem to me that the purchasing approach you’ve chosen to follow is only one of several possible options. For example, had you considered –”
The atmosphere around the table shifted noticeably as the bailiff leaned forward, his eyes intent. Business is business. They could almost physically hear him saying that, although they all knew he would never, under any circumstances, admit that he had.
The arrangements they were discussing probably wouldn’t last, yet they might very well hold up for quite some time. And if the Lord Protector remained as willing to pursue . . . innovative solutions as he clearly was at this moment, some fresh arrangement would undoubtedly be waiting in the wings when the Church finally got around to quashing this one.
Which suggested all sorts of interesting future possibilities . . . .
fascinating, this is my first post here. but one has to admire it, official smuggling, what will be next, it seems that there are more factions in this church than anywhere else.
or is it that the law of unintended consequences is being felt here. It seems that clyntahn has decreed lower costs, no matter how you do it. even if it undermines his own authority.
business is business… seems like the church’s version of “homeland security” is as toothless as ours. loving it.
Does anyone want to guess how these new arrangements will hold up after holy war has been declared…?
hey alistair,
that all depends i think on how much the protector truly knows. we do know that there should be more “jeremy knowls” out there and hopefully this whole republic thing is evidence that some version of the truth exists somewhere in the republic. if not, and this is just a government pushing the law as far as they can…well thats another thing. i suspect however that mr. weber has a surprise buried in siddarmark and it should be completely different from the charis’s brotherhood of st. gernau. cant wait to find out what it is…
If there are significant numbers of such arangements with other nations, the support for holy war will be weak. Without near universal support for holy war, the Church can’t declare it. If they try to force an unpopular holy war on Safehold where even their own Templeland bailifs are ready to end run their dictates, they will destroy what is left of their credibility.
PZ
We have another nail in the coffin of hide-bound traditional thinking and blind obedience to authority. Although full blown holy war will make it harder to get around such dictates as people will be forced into making a choice.
Also notice that His Grand Inquisitiveness never took the very basic step of showing the edict to one of the Church’s financial experts (remember, the Church is also a very large bank) and saying “Any loopholes I should know about before I go public with this?”
Or else he did, and the expert thought “if this nut succeeds at what he’s trying to do to world trade, we’ll all be boiling our own shoe leather for soup” and said “No, sir, it’s perfect just as it is.”
Yet another manifestation of every government’s motto “Ohh – We Never Thought Of That”
On another subject entirely – Is there a publication date for this yet?
Since said financial experts would still live next door to the Grand Inquisitor when he find out about these loopholes I strongly doubt that “No, sir, it’s perfect just as it is.” would have been a survivable answer, and doubtless the financial experts are aware of that risk and would do anything to save their own skins. Or if not anything then at least show a minimum of cleverness and close the most obvious loopholes.
@4 Peter, if the G4 was truly responsive to the mood of the various nations of Safehold and the Church’s lower hierarchies they might not indeed be able to declare Holy War. However I don’t think that’s the case, nor do I think they even begin to realize what they have done to their credibility or authority. I think if/when they decide to go all out they simply will do so, after-all they are God’s anointed aren’t they? I can almost hear Clyntahn saying “Let them eat cake” :)
And then they will begin discovering the true limitations on their real power. Many of the other vicars will be furious when their balifs tell them how much more their luxuries will cost under even the jury-rigged approach Siddarmark is taking. In the few places where the embargo is actually enforced, Church revenues will plunge and defiance will soar. The G of 4 may have some success blaming it all on Charis, but the undercurrent of grumbling will go something like “how incompetent are the G4 that they let it come to this!?”
Ahah … The plot thickens.
I’m not so sure prices are going to go up all that much, Peter. Or maybe that’s not quite right. They already have gone up a lot after all, but I’m also suspecting that as soon as these registration games hit full stride (which I doubt will take all that long) then the prices are going to come back down pretty quick too. Because as soon as the ships are not Charisian ships anymore (on paper, at least) then they will be free to trade whereever they want.
Now once Clyntahn figures out what’s going on and has a hissy fit, then prices will fly back up again because of limited (or no) supply and retained high demand… and then come back down again when the next back-door gets found… and I’m pretty sure quite a few people will see what’s going on and quietly say “who cares what that fat bugger in the orange robe wants I want my [item x] delivered on time at a reasonable price…” Before long people probably won’t even bother to let Clyntahn know what’s going on at all. And those few who try will find themselves beat up and left in a back alley or something like that…
RH
OGO@7. The G4 does not exist in a vacuum. None of the aggressive actions have used their own troops as yet. They have relied on the forces of their supporting nations. By killing the Inquisition reprobates Charis has shown the Church is not protected by the devine hand of God. Bad things can happen to it and its clergy. Siddermark is willing to play games with direct Church dictates and appears to be able to avoid retribution in the short run. Their own balifs are ignoring the G4.
I doubt the rest of Safehold needs many more examples before they begin digging their heels in and stop playing lemmings for the G4. Especially when Siddermark is getting almost as rich as Charis “misunderstanding” Church decrees and Charis’ enemies are getting either chopped up for kracken bait, swallowed into this new Empire or their economies evicerated. Yet the Knights are still living high on the hog buying Charisian goods through Siddermark.
PZ
RH@10. Robert, one of the logical moves after simple registration games and title bait and switch tricks is for the Siddermark owners to actively put trading agents on board. These agents will act as the negotiators and active sales force in those nations still supporting the Church. Siddermark has no seagoing trade experts and needs to develop one. This is the best time to jump into that particular economic sector, especially when they can get Charisian masters to willingly and maybe even eagerly teaching them how its done.
So although other means will undoubtedly be employed to flank Clyntahn, Siddermark will keep as many of these leases going as Charisian ship owners will allow. The Lord Protector may even provide inducements to retain these arrangements for trade in Siddermark ports. Eventually there will be enough capable Siddermarkians to sustain their own merchant fleet.
PZ
Wonder how long it will be until some other country decides to charter “Siddarmark” ships that happen to have Charisian origins and crews to fly under their flag, adding another layer of paperwork. Charis could bank on selling off its fleet (the one that rots after 5 years; disarmed, of course) to its current enemies by proxy of Siddarmark while it gets a fleet with more endurance built.
PZ, that would probably be a smart idea for them to try. But there is nothing in the text to suggest (in the slightest) that such is their intent. The only thing that the text supports is that the ships will be registered in Siddarmark and crewed by Charisians. Officially, the captain (even if he previously owned the ship) will be an employee of the Siddarmark owner just as the rest of the crew. (In reality the original owner, whether the captain or some other Charisian, will probably retain something like a 90% stake or so, but that matters not one whit to the smokescreen being created.) Sure the captain would be smart to hire a Siddarmark trade factor to come along — if for no other reason than to vouch for his ownership papers — but the text doesn’t say they will.
And even if they do exactly as you say, that doesn’t give as big an advantage to Siddarmark as you think. The problem for Siddarmark is not that they lack traders or factors. The problem is that they lack crew for the ships… i.e. riggers, sail-handlers, cargo-masters, etc. And unless they want to start making mixed crews (which is in NO way supported by the text) just sending along a factor won’t do diddly squat to overcome that shortage.
RH
Robert, of course there is no direct text ev, that’s why they call this speculation. ;-)
Aamof, Siddermark doesn’t have enough seamen or factors. How can they when they have never tried to put factors on each of many trading vessels? They don’t have enough capable people for any of these positions. Other than the island states and Dohlar, none of the mainlander nations have the trained personell to supplant Charisian bottoms. So, if Siddermark develops enough trained factors with enough seagoing experience to manage trading vessels if not actually sail them directly, wouldn’t you think they can start hiring Corsinadian sailors unwilling to work for Charisians? Perhaps Dohlaran sailors or Tarotisians sick and tired of starving behind the Charisian blockade or being targets for Charisian privateers?
The possibilities are huge and a logical progression from the facts DW has already presented in text.
PZ
PZ… sorry, I was thinking you were trying to exogete here (as I was)… you’re doing your own interpolation (isogesis) instead… :)
RH
That didn’t come out quite right… I was thinking in terms of “what we know will happen” based on the text… you were thinking in terms of what could happen within the boundaries of the text…
Right?
RH
Bingo!
Well in that case, PZ, I’m not sure that the factors are necessarily the best way to go. I mean, they have fairly big trading houses (on land) already, so I’d figure some of them could go to sea fairly easily. Trading is trading, after all. Sure there are new rules to learn, but I don’t consider that the truly *critical* aspect for them to work on.
But if they want to hire their own crew (whether Charisians or Tarotisians or locals or whatever) they need people who can do the work themselves (so they know if their crew is misbehaving). Then they could have a Siddarmarkan captain and sailing master and a cargo master — i.e. the “officers” of a ship — and they could hire sail handlers or whatnot from other sources. But if they just hire crew from wherever to haul their factor around they wouldn’t have any control over whether the crew behaved, and they couldn’t be sure the crew wouldn’t just sail off with their stuff, because they wouldn’t know when the crew tries to pull a fast one until its far too late.
But you generally aren’t hired as a manager and then allowed to learn how to be a manager on the job. You have to start on the ground floor and work your way up to management. So I would think that they’d have a few of their teenagers sign on as “grunts” who can work their way up the crew seniority ladder over time. And then as their now-well-trained 20-somethings are able to take over those senior roles, only then do they start hiring their own crews from other sources.
RH
I suspect that the ‘new’ owners would try to get as many of their people trained as seamen and Charis may help them to train them. Remember Charis income depends on their goods being sold. While Charis may prefer Charisian goods being carried on Charisian ships, Charis would still get an good income if the goods were carried by non-Charisian shipping.
By the way, on asking a Church offical about any loopholes, in the first book there was a comment about ‘gaming the system’ being very common. Safeholders commonly look for loopholes in Church regulations. There is no way for the Church to close all loopholes.
Dear Fellow Snippet-Victims:
We have already seen in a previous snippet that Clyntahn is plotting something nasty for Siddermark’s leadership. Now, we have a bailiff for some other member of the Council of Vicars (which we know, from textual evidence) is actually quite a divided body with at LEAST one major, organized faction gunning for the G4 already supporting subversion of Clyntahn’s policies. As a previous poster noted, ‘gaming the system’ is common, very much as buying dispensations, church goods etc was common in the 16th and 17th centuries prior to the reformation (Council of Trent etc, blah, blah…). It will be interesting to see if Siddermark’s leadership survives Clyntahn’s plot and if not, why not and what other factions (in the church) do about it all. Someone, in the past has already speculated that Siddermarks “well-trained pikes” could easily end up on Charis’ side. A failed attempt against Siddermark’s leadership by the G4, in light of that leadership’s deep disaffectation (today’s snippet is further evidence) could easily bring about catastrophe for the Church. Despite having land borders, Siddermark with compete security on its sea coasts, plus sea transport AND with the latest generation of military equipment from Charis, could easily stand off the other major land-bound realms. Now…that would be trouble! AND, that brings us back to the power-sources in the temple and if the G4 have access to some sort of ‘big red button’ they can push in times of total disaster.
Hmmmm?
P.
Drak, I can just see it now.
Minor Siddermarkian clerk responds to a minor agent of the inquisition. “You mean Vicar Clyntahn really means what he says now? Before he was just saying things to sound well intentioned and creating ‘donation’ opportunities? Father, please ask his Emminence to make up his mind!”
PZ
Publication date is July 21, 2009. Amazon is taking pre-orders.
Now it makes sense. Clyntahn already knew that traders would get around the embargo somehow, unless they really wanted to obey.
This would be where his plans for a big PR blitz come in. He’s betting that if enough people hear tortured Charisians forced to say “The Church of Charis worships Shan-wei and eats babies” or whatever, and believe it, they won’t want to do business. Of course, this too could backfire in very obvious ways, and people won’t stop needing reasonably priced goods…
I’m intrigued by the presence of the “senior bailiff for a member of the Council of Vicars”.
As Drak suggests (24), this may be an individual bishop corruptly conducting “business as usual”. As John suggests (4), this may be evidence of another of Shan-wei Adams in Siddarmark. Or it could be the bailiff for one of the Vicars in Wyslynn’s Circle (Schism p402). Each of these could take the story in a different direction. Additionally, if it is another of Shan-Wei’s Adams, will any “Church of Siddarmark” become a separate faction? (consider the differences between Lutherans and Calvinists)
Hmm, Wyrm, most or all of us have long thought there were more of Shan-Wei’s “second strings” out there… but I think most of us were thinking they were on the other out-islands… Emerald, Chisholm, Corisande(?), etc. While I would think she would want to put them as far and wide as possible, putting them on the mainland would be MUCH more risky. The chances of discovery would be so much higher there that I personally suspect that they were probably still planned but a lower priority and that she didn’t get around to them before Alexandria got nuked back to the stone age.
Now on the other hand if this nameless baliff were to turn out to be Pine Hollow’s younger brother (we know he’s assigned to Siddarmark) then he could very well be a member of such an order without it having had to have been from Siddarmark. And that I would buy much more easily.
As for whether it’s a separate “protestant” organization… good question. For now I would tend to guess no, if for no other reason than that I don’t expect it to happen in this “round” at all. I think that if they ever do break away it will be in “round 2” 20+ years from now (or perhaps in the lead-up to that round). At that time, however, such an idea becomes much more realistically possible.
RH
RH@28. Robert, Wyrms’ point has some validity. The Catholic Church fractured around two primary theological points. Lutheran’s primarily contended that the Pope’s was not the ultimate descicion matters of faith. Each Christian had that responsibility. Calvanists took it a step further. They contend that God does not give up any sovereignty at all with regards to Grace. who is saved is ultimately His descision.
So, to translate these schisms into Safehold theology, perhaps Charis will be satisfied with multiple church heirarchies and Siddermark (or some other schismatics) may further downplay the power of the Archangels as it may impact personal human conscience. The first essentially limits the disagreement to Church politics and the second begins to question the basic theology.
The Church of Safehold needs to have both streeses applied to it before all is said and done.
PZ
Upon further reflection, there almost has to be a second schismatic faction in this book. So long as there are only 2 theological factions, the Church continue the God vs. Shan Wei analogy. Should there be three or more schismatic directions, this will be much tougher.
Imagine each group agreeing with the Church on some things but not on others and each other on different things but not with the Church. That kind of complexity would force individual Safholders to think through what it is they actually believe. Such complexity would also make all sides suitibly gray and not simply black or white.
Peter
PZ, yes, but no. Because eventually there does need to be exactly that… but you seem to be forgetting about “round 2”.
In theory, you “need” a third schism to force the church to no longer look at things as Langhorne vs. Shan-Wei. But only in theory.
In reality, you already have sufficient viewpoints for the story outline Weber has proclaimed. Remember that per his disucssions at the conventions he wants things to settle down for 20 years or so before “round 2” with Cayleb and Sharleyan’s kids. He may change his mind of course, but for now that’s the story arc that we are locked into. And the Circle already recognizes that as Charisian doctrine is currently proclaimed they are merely refusing to submit to the authority of the Grand Vicar. Note the “so long as it’s merely schism, and not heresy” in their meeting near the end of BSRA.
Unless Weber throws out his current outline, he’ll have to find a way to put the Circle into power and get most of the rest of the Vicarate to go along with their “schism only we’ll tolerate but watch the heresy” approach.
RH
Robert, I am not party to too many con discussions. If the G4 stay in power after this book, it sounds like some serious problems will be brewing for quite some time. Too bad. I would like to have some closure to this storyline.
PZ
Pyrrhic, I’ll have to check the earlier snippets but I thought Clyntahn was planning to use the ‘confessions’ of the captured Charisian sailors to create political pressure for the Lord Protector.
IE scared voters asking the Lord Protector to support the Church.
If I were Qwentyn, I would put a Siddarmarkian ‘Captain’ aboard each of ‘my’ new ships. He would be the Captain in port, and at sea, apprentice to the Charisian Sailing Master. I would transfer ‘Captains’ around to have as many pairings of ‘Captain’ and Sailing Master as possible, and eventually, as nearly as possible, assign each ‘Captain’ to his preferred Sailing Master and vice versa, because if they become friends, they would be more inclined to learn from each other. And I would put as many Siddarmarkian apprentice seamen as practicable aboard each ship.
What could be better for both Charis and Siddarmark than to be equal trading partners, rather than Siddarmark being a semi-colony of Charis?
I once heard about a GI who was captured during the Korean Conflict and forced to confess. He confessed as demanded and revealed the names of others in his unit: Colonel Perry White, Captain Bruce Wayne, Sergeants Clark Kent and Lois Lane, and Privates Jimmy Olson and Dick Grayson. Somehow, publicizing that confession failed to confer the expected benefits on North Korea! Might a Charisian make a similar confession?
And let’s not forget that as BSRA ended, Cayleb and a fleet were sailing eastwars to visit Prince Hektor, and something interesting will likely ensue. A union between Charis and Corisande, perhaps?
BH
It’s been said before, but the reason that even the Grand Inquistitor doesn’t want to drive Siddarmark into allying with Charis is that all those well trained pikemen can become well trained riflemen. The Church may still have too many resources to actually be defeated, but under that setup, the Church would definitely have to change its views on change and perhaps even the Proscriptions if it were to have any hope of enforcing its edicts and reclaiming its credibility.
@ RobertHuntingdon (30)
A possible reason for suspecting one of Shan-wei’s “second strings” in Siddarmark is in the very name – “Siddarmark Republic”.
Given what we “know” about Langhorne, having one republic in a planet of monarchies does not seem to meet his desire to be worshipped. So how did Siddarmark become a republic? Safehold does not have the equivalent of the ancient republics of Greece or Rome for a revolutionary to utilise. However, we know that included in the NEST re-education was the US Declaration of Independence, etc., so a possible explanation is that a “second string” found an opportunity to trigger a revolution in Siddarmark, and established a republic in the hope that it would provide a better environment for free-thinking.
It could be that this meeting is a double edged sword for both the Church and Siddarmark. The priest here might have orders to encourage Siddarmarkian trade in violation of Church decree as part of a long-term plot to invade Siddarmark on the grounds of defying Church edict if not outright apostasty. From there the Church will have a good enough staging point for attacking Charis and can enslave much of the Siddar population for production. This would naturally require a bloodbath, but with the populations the Church has available they could afford to do so if they can keep the loyalty of those other nations.
Now, if the Church wants to avoid a bloodbath, they use the trading-in-defiance issue to depose the republican government and impose a dictatorship until such time as some form of government can be handed back over to some authority in Siddarmark. They’d have to play the faith card rather strongly, as well as the Charisian conspiracy card (like antisemetics always say there’s a Jewish conspiracy to rule the world) but they might be able to prompt a social revolution easier than eliminating the society.
BH, apart from maybe a “Commander Tranyr” there wouldn’t be anyone else to name at this point since there haven’t been any other Seijins fleshed out and the concept of a superman falls short at the “Angels.” Not to mention there really hasn’t been any mention of widespread newspaper or print media for the general public apart from the occasional library, record house, and all the spy reports floating around. Honestly, a political cartoon of Clyntahn introduced in a culture that isn’t used to such a thing would be downright humiliating if rendered truthfully. Get the whole world laughing and not even the Inquisition could do anyhthing about it.
I suppose at this point, all involved parties are rather too busy taking their enemies seriously to have more than the occasional bout of fun with them.
If I were Charis I would “accidently” leave a few rifles on each of the ships that they sold and then happen to send some covert agents to Siddarmark to train them.
Hmm, Wyrm, I suppose that makes sense from the outside looking in at least. Not so sure it fits with other scenes from OAR or BSRA. Like (for example) when King Haarald was explaining to Merlin why his great-grandfather abolished serfdom in Charis: “We may not be born to the same states, in the later, less perfect world. Some of us are born kings now [emphasis mine], and some are born noble, or to wealth, or all three.” Seems to emphasize that whatever government there was at the beginning of Safehold it wasn’t monarchies or nobility-based. And given that the way “On Obedience and Faith” made Zion master of just about everybody was considered a “radical” departure from the previous situation I think we can rule out theocracy. Only things left I can think of are either republics/democracies or consensual-micro-communism on the village level (which, if you rip out the economic crap that doesn’t work, is essentially unlimited democracy).
And although my scanning of the dead tree editions fails to spot the line I am looking for, I also remember somebody somewhere saying something about Siddarmark “clinging to its ancient Republican form of government”, as if that was what it had from the very beginning of its existence when others devolved into outright dictatorships (rather than the merely pseudo-dictatorship they have).
I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find that there is one there. I just don’t see any real strong evidence in the text so far. And if it is there, given that Stohnar is distrusted not actually Siddarmark itself, I suspect it’s a much smaller organization with far less influence (except, presumably, at the very top) than with St Zherneau’s.
RH
E, I think that would actually be a good idea. I just don’t see Clyntahn as being smart enough to think of it. Every characterization of him I’ve seen puts him as an intellectually lazy person who thinks of one idea, assumes that because it was his it must be the best idea possible, and charges forward where angels fear to tread without even thinking about any possible alternatives much less “second bow-strings”.
RH
BH, I would agree that would be what I would want to do in their shoes. On the other hand, they may not have the huge amount of spare population to send to sea. After all, they have a huge standing army just to defend their borders against Desnair and Harchong. Then they have huge farms for grain to feed those troops and grow their primary exports (grain and cotton). I’m sure they have cities too but the descriptions of their situation sounds like they don’t have large numbers of spare population to work with here. Otherwise they wouldn’t have to be so “fixated” (as I believe Merlin put it) on securing their borders.
I mean lets run the numbers here. A Dreadnought-class Charisian warship carried a crew of around 500-550, with something like 200+ marines and something like 250+ men just to man their guns. That leaves barely 50-100 to cover officers, cooks, clerks, powder monkeys, and other support personnel. Which means the marines (or perhaps the off-side gunners) must double as sail-handlers. Now a merchant vessel is going to have a MUCH smaller crew but they still can’t get down to nothing. Say maybe they have 30-50 people in a crew. Now if a much larger warship has 500 people crammed into it more-or-less like sardines, a smaller civilian transport can probably only fit 250 or so marines when used as a troop transport. I’m going to double that though just to be safe. When you have a 50,000 man invasion army thats 100 (likely more) transports just for the marines, plus store ships, plus support personnel, etc etc etc. If there are less than 125-150 ships in the Corisandian invasion (NOT counting the warships) I’d be shocked. It’s likely 250. Now they aren’t going to take 150 transports out of their economy if that’s going to grind things to a halt. So if Charis had less than 600 ships (before the seizures at least) I’d frankly be quite shocked. Indeed I’d be unsurprised to find they had a thousand or so. It’s not like we’re talking about a plantary population of only one million people here…
600+ ships is a LOT of factors and a LOT of sail handlers (even if only five or so per ship) to come up with on short notice. Could they do it? Eventually, probably. In the short term, however, especially if they are as tightly pressed by their military needs as hinted at by textev, then no.
Which is why I kinda like the idea of turning some of those pikemen into riflemen that John was hinting at. If they took their army and made one third of them riflemen then over time they could turn 1/2 to 2/3rds of the rest into something else more useful to their economy and still massively increase their military power (at least until Desnair or Harchong have the same). Whether that was sailors or Navy officers/crew or manufacturers or whatever. And the remainder could still be “army reserve” if need be…
RH
Oops, correction to 42… I meant “undeniably brilliant but still intellectually lazy”…
RH
@30 RH you’re assuming they STAYED on the islands. There could have been any number of reasons for a second string enclave of a half dozen or so people to have moved to Siddamark in the last 1000 years; war, famine, calcutated move… etc. I agree that it is unlikly they started out on the mainland though. You never know with DW. :)
We’re 9 snippets into a what’s likely to be a long story, who knows what DW’s got in store for us.
Here are a few things that have me wondering.
1) Why aren’t they using the inner circle of the Order of Zernou(sp?) to help process OWL’S data?
2) Are the power sources under the Temple ever going to be more than a plot device to keep Merlin out of the area? Are there programmed contingencies that will give the G4 new toys to play with if Temple sensors detect advanced technology?
3) Why keep the paranoid security procedures in place when this is end game time? This is win or die, not win or hide out some more for a better opportunity later.
4) There’s a lot of pages to be filled up with resolving the Hektor issue. I’m beginning to suspect that there is something other that an early grave in his future. What about the son and daughter that have been brought into the picture?
RH Fitness to be a ‘Captain’ (and later a real captain) of a ship is more a matter of personality and intellect than the physical fitness required of a soldier, so ‘Captains’ do not have to be recruited from the same pool of citizens as are soldiers. So I don’t see any great difficulty there.
I said as many apprentice seamen as practicable. That means the lesser of (a) as many as can be recruited, and (b) as many as each ship can reasonably use as trainees.
BB If Hektor can be tamed, can Irys? If so, can Cayleb or Sharleyan find her a suitable husband?
BH, of course they don’t. Indeed they probably wouldn’t. But my point was that they are described as “fixated” and to me that reads “scraping the bottom of the barell trying to find a few more people to train as pikemen”.
Perhaps I’m misreading.
RH
In regards to whether there is a 2nd string person in Siddermark….from something in OAR, my impression was that an ‘archangel’ or angels were each assigned to setup each country, from the buildings to the government and society. From this I’ve always thought that whoever established Siddermark created a republic from the 1st, or very soon after ‘creation’. Perhaps it started out as a monarchy like all the others, but after the destruction of most of the archangels, perhaps the one in charge of Siddermark was then free to change it into a republic – or something like a republic. Note that the upper echelons are run by a few families who are eligible for leadership via inheritance. There may not be full scale elections, perhaps more like Greece where only a few people: land owning men are eligible to vote. After all, the reason we in the US have to put up with the electoral college is that even our founding fathers were suspicious of the common man and ‘mob’ rule.
46 Yes Brian I agree with your thoughts on analyzing OWLs Data imagine getting 5-20 people (some could just be “outer circle”) looking at all that data Like a CIA or MI6 analyst. Notes in safe hold writing just get delivered raw and unedited by OWL or edited (either would have it’s pluses and minus’)
I suspect to keep a proper human tab on all of the snarcs would take around a 1000 analyists so possibly in 20-40 years time Merlin will get a intelligence organsieation up in running where they take full advantage of all the snarcs and OWL as opposed to the currently imperfect OWL-merlin combo.
Yet for now Round 1 he should get 5 or so inner circle and maybe a few outer circle people looking at the data.
I suspect that after merlin has been bitten for not keeping a close eye on everything he will start delegating some of this to other people.