BY HERESIES DISTRESSED – snippet 6:
“We interviewed all of the survivors before my Emperor gave us our orders, Sir Vyk,” Rock Point said, his harsh voice yanking Lakyr’s attention back to him. “Before we ever sailed for Ferayd, we knew whose voices were shouting ‘Holy Langhorne and no quarter!’ when your men came aboard our people’s ships. But we didn’t rely solely on that testimony when we tried the guilty. It never even crossed Graivyr’s mind that anyone else, anyone outside the Office of Inquisition itself would ever read his secret files. Unfortunately for him, he was wrong. These men were convicted not on the basis of any Charisian’s testimony, but on the basis of their own written statements and reports. Statements and reports in which they proudly reported, bragged about, the zeal with which they went about exhorting your troops to ‘Kill the heretics!'”
The Charisian’s eyes were colder than northern ice, and Lakyr could physically feel the rage within him . . . and the iron will which kept that rage leashed and controlled.
“Copies of those statements and reports will be provided to King Zhames — and to the Council of Vicars in Zion,” Rock Point continued coldly. “The originals will be returning to Tellesberg with me, so that we can be certain they won’t mysteriously disappear, but King Zhames will receive Graivyr’s own file copies. What he does with them, whether to publish them abroad, destroy them, or hand them back over to Clyntahn, is his business, his decision. But whatever he may do, we will do nothing in darkness, unseen by the eyes of men. We will, most assuredly, publish the evidence, and unlike the men and women — and children — they had murdered, Sir Vyk, every one of these men was offered the benefit of clergy after he was sentenced. And unlike the children who were slaughtered here on their own ships with their parents, there isn’t one of them who doesn’t understand exactly why he’s about to hang.”
Lakyr swallowed hard, and Rock Point twitched his head in Graivyr’s direction.
“For centuries the Inquisition has meted out the Church’s punishment. Perhaps there was once a time when that punishment was true justice. But that time has passed, Sir Vyk. God doesn’t need savagery to show His people what He desires of them, and these men — and others like them — have hidden behind Him for far too long. Used Him to shield them from the consequences of their own monstrous actions. Used their office and their authority in the service not of God, or even of God’s Church, but of vile and corrupt men like Vicar Zhaspahr. Now it is time they, and everyone like them, discover that the vestments they have perverted will no longer be permitted to protect murderers and torturers from justice. These men never dreamed they might face death for their crimes. They are about to discover differently . . . and perhaps at least some of their fellow inquisitors will be wise enough to learn from their example.”
Lakyr stared at him, then cleared his throat.
“My Lord,” he said hoarsely, “think before you do this!”
“Oh, I assure you, I have thought, long and hard,” Rock Point said, his voice as inflexible as his title. “And so have my Emperor and my Empress.”
“But if you do this, the Church –”
“Sir Vyk, ‘the Church’ sat by and watched when the Group of Four planned the slaughter of my entire kingdom. ‘The Church’ has allowed herself to be ruled by men like Zhaspahr Clyntahn. ‘The Church’ has become the true servant of darkness in this world, and deep inside somewhere, all of her priesthood must know that. Well, so do we. Unlike ‘the Church,’ we will execute only the guilty, and unlike the Inquisition, we refuse to torture in God’s name, to extort confessions out of the innocent. But the guilty we will execute, starting here. Starting now.”
Lakyr started to say something else, then closed his mouth.
He’s not going to change his mind, the Delferahkan thought. Not any more than I would, if I had my King’s orders. And, he admitted unwillingly, it’s not as if Mother Church hadn’t already declared herself Charis’ enemy. And he’s not wrong about these men’s guilt, either.
A spasm of something very like terror went through Lakyr on the heels of that last thought, but he couldn’t unthink it. It echoed somewhere deep down inside him, reverberating with his own anger, his own disgust, when Graivyr and his fellow Schuelerites turned what ought to have been — could have been — the bloodless seizure of the Charisian merchantmen here in Ferayd into bloody massacre.
Perhaps, a tiny little voice said in the shadowed stillness of his heart, it really is time someone held those who do murder in the Church’s name accountable.
That was the most terrifying thought of all, for it was pregnant with the dreadful implication of other thoughts, other decisions, looming before not just Sir Vyk Lakyr, but every living man and woman. As he watched the nooses being fitted around the necks of the struggling men on HMS Destroyer’s upper deck, he knew he was witnessing the seed from which all those other thoughts and decisions would spring. These executions were a declaration that men would be held accountable as men for their actions, that those who exhorted murder, who tortured and burned in “God’s name,” would no longer be permitted to hide behind their priestly status. And that was the true iron gage the Charisian Empire had chosen to fling at the Church of God Awaiting’s feet.
The last noose went around the last condemned man’s neck and drew tight. Two of the priests on Destroyer’s deck were frantically trying to fling themselves from side to side, as if they thought they could somehow break free of their rough-edged hempen halters, and it took a pair of Marines each to keep them on their feet as the drums gave one last, thunderous roar, and fell silent at last.
Lakyr heard one of the condemned inquisitors still babbling, pleading, but most of the others stood silent, as if they were no longer able to speak, or as if they had finally realized that nothing they could have said could possibly alter what was about to happen.
Baron Rock Point faced them from Destroyer’s after deck, and his face was hard, his eyes bleak.
“You stand condemned by your own words, your own written reports and statements, of having incited the murder of men — and of women and children. God knows, even if we do not, what other atrocities you may have committed, how much other blood may have stained your hands, in the service of that man-shaped corruption who wears the robe of the Grand Inquisitor. But you have convicted yourselves of the murders you did here, and that is more than sufficient.”
“Blasphemer!” Graivyr shouted, his voice half-strangled with mingled fury and fear. “You and all your foul ’empire’ will burn in Hell forever for shedding the blood of God’s own priests!”
“Someone may burn in Hell for shedding innocent blood,” Rock Point said coldly. “For myself, I will face God’s judgment unafraid that the blood on my hands will condemn me in His eyes. Can you say the same, ‘priest’?”
“Yes!” Graivyr’s voice gusted with passion, yet there was something else in it, something buried in its timbre, Lakyr thought. A note of fear that quailed before something more than the terror of impending death. At least one thin sliver of . . . uncertainty as he found himself on the threshold of mortality. What would he and the other inquisitors discover when they found themselves face-to-face at last with the Inquisition’s victims?
“Then I wish you pleasure of your confidence,” Rock Point told Graivyr in an iron-hard voice, and nodded sharply to the parties of seamen who’d tailed onto the ends of the ropes.
“Carry out the sentence,” he said.
Why Charis has already won (repost):
Looking at the strategic goal of the Church, it has always maintained its favoritism of nations like Harchong or Desnair because it’s long term goal is to disrupt Siddarmark and render that “superpower†irrelevent and dependent on the Church. Charis, in OAR was always just a backwater whose short-term significance was as a dependent of Siddarmark’s economy and the trade/political interplay each offered. In fact, Charis is still a backwater compared to the Church’s interests in the mainland continents (just like the US was up until WWII and the Lend-Lease act with Britain) but the major blow to the Church’s secular power is entirely composed of what Charis did in BSRA and not the military victories at all. By political maneuvering and uniting with Emerald and Chisholm, the Empire of Charis is essentially a bigger entity than the fractured nations under the Church can handle.
To understand this type of political strata, one should look at the relationship of the world to the US. When 9/11/01 passed and the smoke cleared, the actions of the US in invading Afghanistan were not the stabilizing actions one might imagine – more so with the invasion of Iraq – but rather a destabilizing action which has essentially pitted the world of Islamic politics against itself with every state with an Islamic population arguing over how things should be done with each other and the US. While the perception is that the US is wasting its time in the region, it can already be said that the US has won the war on radical Islam by denying Al Qaeda’s long-term goal to them forever: the unification of the region under a caliph government. The US might have lost a hundred thousand troops to the region and still won because the region would never organize at a level to challenge the true strength of the US, its economy. And what a lot of people don’t realize is this: The United States economy depends on the fact that the US owns the world’s seagoing trade. No vessel on any ocean moves without the allowance of the United States Navy. And while it is not as pervasive on Safehold as it is now on modern Earth, the important thing about this moment in Safehold’s history is that it is essentially rigging the playing field in Charis’ favor.
By consolidating successfully, Charis has matched the power of what a developed nation like Siddarmark has and by focusing on its navy, is securing a multifunctional tool that no army could match in terms of versatility and projection. Siezing Corisande at this point is not merely a wrapping-up of the region’s conflict, but it also denies Charis’ main competitor – the developed nations of the Churchlands – access to the the last remaining friendly and developed portage in the eastern ocean. The reason for the field being rigged in Charis’ favor at this point is thus: the Empire of Charis doesn’t need a large army in the same way that the US doesn’t, it cannot be invaded without a navy. From the point in OAR when every opposing navy was wiped out, Charis essentially cleared a path for itself to keep its power by only having to destabilize its opponents. Like the US allying with Maoist China to contain the USSR, the Charisians are likely to pull the same move with Siddarmark to contain the Church. If the Church can be forced into a focused land battle in Siddarmark (even if Siddarmark is crushed) Charis wins by the sheer stint of not only having the only navy worth a damn but by also entrenching the only culture that wants such a navy. Naval culture is just as important as a navy in that China could materially create a navy to hold the Pacific (heck, Japan did it without having natural resources of their own) but can’t pull it off because they are too focused on being China for and in China, not in the world. Likewise with the Church, seeing as they consider the mainland to be most worth looking after and are focused on stability.
The ability of the Church to restrict mainland trade with Charis I considered a non-factor. If they don’t get some form of sea-based shipping, they will collapse internally and lose anyways, so it’s only a matter of time until they pull some kind of cease-fire in order to re-arm themselves and restablize seagoing trade. That or they’d have to pour much more money into roadbuilding.
If Charis maintains coastal trade with the mainland, it is likely that societal rifts will form over the simple location of wealth in the Mainland kingdoms. As evidenced with imperialism in China, coastal cities with access to foreign wealth encouraged and even wanted foreign control (and separation from China’s central government) because it simply meant more resources and wealth for them. Where Weber was smart was in establishing Charis as a manufacturing nation which processed raw materials into goods for sale in other nations because (as seen on Earth) traditionally established empires often end up being net exporters of raw material; places like Harchong focus extensively on generating food and cotton (slave population to feed) but leave the manufacturing to places like Charis for items like sailcloth. The problem with these nations (even Siddarmark) is not that they can’t make the manufacturing capabilities like Charis has, it’s that they don’t have the impetus to make them because of corrupt and inefficient beureacracy and the “who you know†factor that arises. Places where slave labor exists might be able to grind out some kind of progress but it would be just that, a grind. The only reasonable place to assume some measure of forward-mindedness might be the Desnarian Empire because it has territorial interests against Siddarmark and would have already been enhancing its war footing before the Charisian war.
As far as internal trade within the Charisian empire goes, it would suffer from its own problems because the economy wouldn’t balance well enough without direct government allocation of funds to needy areas; and any government action or inaction would encourage internal rifts if the Church as an enemy became a non-factor. But internal strife from such trade would likely occur over 50 years given the slow pace at which trade occurs on Safehold. Now, if Safehold had a population, technology, and economy like Earth does right now, they’d be swimming in corpses or congressional paperwork within 10 years.
As to OWL, OWL is a computer, and while he might have some heuristic programming, he is essentially a very complex change-sorting machine in that he can swap out coins by size (like identifying keywords) but doesn’t know the value of anything that he sorts.
(Repost here as well…)
Your idea that the Charisian empire would find major internal disruption from lack of supplies or production capacity might be true as to cotton and grain (after all, they imported a ton of that from Siddarmark before) but I suspect those are far easier to replace than you seem to think. Would it cause some problems in the short term? Probably. But I’d be absolutely shocked if Charis didn’t have some sort of “strategic reserve” of critical materials that they import. How big was it? No way to know. But I’d bet it’s big enough to help them ride out a short-term disruption. Furthermore, I note with interest that Chisholm was NOT mentioned as a major importer from Siddarmark. Does that mean they didn’t import? Not necessarily. But it could, and if so, then Chisholm could very well become a major internal replacement supplier of those critical needs. We also don’t know what the major products of Corisande or Tarot or Emerald are either. Given Prince Narhmahn’s comments to Earl Pine Hollow early in BSRA about Cayleb and Sharleyan controlling “all the resources they’ll need for their economies… or their military power”, I have to assume that between Emerald, Corisande, and Chisholm there are a fair number of cotton and grain fields and some rather large stands of warship-quality forests.
So they might have some disruption, but I have a VERY hard time expecting it to be something that doesn’t both come and go very quickly. The short-term disruption would probably be in that they either have to pull from strategic reserve or frantically prepare new fields to increase their internal production. But all things considered I doubt it would last long. Cayleb (and the rest of his advisers) have to realize this is a possibility and they will have some sort of strategic plan for combating the problem when it arises.
And the idea of it taking 50 years? No way. Archbishop Erayk took about six weeks to get all the way from Zion to Tellesberg. And that wasn’t exactly a very straight shot. The turnaround time for a shipment from Tellesberg to Siddar was probably barely two months round-trip, maybe even less in favorable conditions. And that was BEFORE the advent of the schooner rig. No if there are going to be disruptions they will be felt quickly, but they will also have been expected and will be dealt with quickly as well.
RH
It is the seeds that are being sown in Sir Vyk’s mind about (and people like him) that will doom the church in the end it is just taking time to sink in
RH, I think you misread the context of his “50 years” comment. He wasn’t trying to say that there would be no disruption for 50 years (which is patently ridiculous), but rather that the longer-term effects of losing all their mainland trade for an extended period of time would take a long time to really be felt. That is, if they had to rely completely upon internal trade and smuggling.
And if Charis needs more resources, as soon as they work up the nerve to settle Armageddon Reef they have another whole continent to play with. They could even conquer Trellheim, unless the pirates there have been better at updating their navies than the “legitimate” kingdoms. (I’m leaving “the Barren Lands” out because I assume they’re called that for a reason.)
Um, I know hemisphere chauvinism is the least of literary sins but why would a Charisian think of ‘northern ice’?
Maybe that’s what he meant, Jeff, but that’s not what he said. He said “likely occur over 50 years” not “likely extend…”. The only legitimate meaning of “likely occur” is that it would take 50 years to fully develop. “Likely extend” would have meant that it would occur quickly and then take 50 years to fully recover from.
Now losing export markets would hurt a lot, but in the immediate term Chisholm and Emerald will pick up at least some of that slack, and in the not-very-long-term-at-all (say, a few years) the smuggling would get so utterly rampant that their export markets might not be AS profitable as before but they’d be VERY close. The rest of Haven and Howard literally can’t make (at all!) what Charis can provide them. Definately not in sufficient quantities to satisfy their markets at least, and in many cases with the new weaving technologies and the like they can’t provide it at all. And that completely ignores the fact that transporting whatever they can produce will be nearly impossible and extremely expensive. No Ehdwyrd Howsmyn has the right of it, if the church seriously intends to keep the markets closed they better be able to magically produce a ton of manufactories and even more excellent roads in a few months or less (and preferably some dirt-cheap ground transportation tech like 18-wheelers as well), or the blockade will dissipate into near-uselessness within a year, two at the outside.
And so whether he meant it will take 50 years to develop or 50 years to recover from, he’s still wrong either way.
RH
Interesting thought about roads. Themaps I saw didn’t indicate mush about topography, but canals were the most efficient way to move mass goods prior to the steam powered railroad.Safehold technology is certainly up to canal locks and draft dragon towed barges, but I do not recall any mention of them. Given the large populations of the main continent NOT near the coast, I would expect canals to be a factor in inland transportation.There must be something, or the populations inland would have migrated to the coast over the centuries.
CS
My reference to internal strife taking 50 years to develope was meant that divisions along cultural, political, and religious lines would come to a head in something like civil war in the Charisian Empire. The reason why it won’t occur sooner is that Charis has the overwhelming military power to keep its new lands in line. In 50 years time, Charis’ innovations will have fully integrated into the societies of the unified Empire and two generations will have been raised and will be capable of fighting each other if the nations in the Charisian Empire aren’t satisfied with how things are. Fomenting of nationalism and attempts at disproportionate regulation within the Empire will occur if they lack trading partners out of self-defense, not any dividing sense of individualism as a nation although as a reflex ocurrence this would come about, simply because one people starve over another. As it stands, the current generation is energized on the external threat of the Church nations, and it is only if the Church maintains a blockade AND is untouchable by the new Charisian Empire that the “50 Years” later civil war might have a chance of occuring. The reason for this being that internal trade tends to concentrate wealth faster as entrepenuers recognize the lack of competition as an opportunity to have no competition; with Charis as the dominant nation in the Empire, the balance of trade would inevitably favor them, thus generating internal strife. Charis could resort to invasion of foreign powers as a means to supply demands back in the Empire, further delaying internal conflicts just as Rome often resorted to invasion as a means of calming demands for goods and security back in their capital – the difference here being that the Empire already has set borders with no ambiquity as to who their opponents and trading partners are. Since I already pointed out that the blockade is unsustainable, my comments over Charis’ internal strifes are only a likely speculation at this point. All Charis has to do is keep their enemies off-balance indefinitely and they can keep control of seagoing trade. Now, as far as Charis creating the primary industries to supply raw materials, they are probably closer to the USSR’s ideal of independence from the need for foreign resource supply, it’s the demands for foreign luxuries that Charis will suffer for in the duration of this war.
CS. I had considered canals from the get go. Currently there is no need for them, but with the absence of ocean going hulls there will be. Safehold’s non-productivity in agriculture suggests that farmers are everywhere on the mainland. They have to be because shipping bulk foodstuffs using draft animals over any extended distance is simply feeding the cargo to the beasts. The only way it becomes profitable is if the productivity is high enough to overcome the expense of freighting overland. All other bulk goods tend to be for specialized use. Lumber for ships, ores for guns and the guns themselves. The volume for these types of goods is hardly massive, regardless of their strategic importance.
Going forward, will the investment in canals be worthwhile without an attendant increase in agricultural productivity and a greater specialization (and productivity) in different regions with respect to either farming or manufacture? I suspect that no, canals are not worthwhile from a pro-Church perspective. It would be appear cheaper to raise a sufficient force to crush your enemies.
After Charis cleans their clocks while Siddermark sits back and laughs or even joins in, they may feel differently. Yet admitting that Charis rules the waves also admits (for them) that God has abandoned them or that they have abandoned God. Either would be too painful for this current generation.
PZ
Good canals are arguably as difficult to make as good roads. Either one will require a lot of manpower in this society, not to mention a lot of time to cover continents the size of Howard or Haven. I don’t really think they’re going to be feasible over the short term, which is when the Church needs them. I don’t know what the state of the road system is on Safehold, but I do know that sea transportation is much quicker than land transportation until you get motorized vehicles such as trains.
I don’t really think it’s feasible for the Church to maintain its closing of ports to Charis merchant ships for any length of time, so the question of what kind of internal strife would occur and how long it would take is academic, though I agree with E that it would take decades for it to fully develop. I think he’s referring to the kind of sectional divisions that occurred in the United States over the decades leading to the Civil War, which really would take decades to fully develop. And in that case, some kind of trade disruption would probably be endemic.
I seriously doubt that Weber is going to pursue that kind of a course in any case, though.
@9. E. Your analysis depends on each nation having significantly different sets of values and priorities. Thanks to Langehorn, they have an almost uniform value structure. Thanks to Merlin, Cayleb and Micheal they will have a short, intermediate and long-term purpose. These alignments will tend to direct imperial citizens away from the factionalized priorities you describe. Also, Merlin may direct his assistance to different areas of the empire to offset one region’s advantage over another.
As it stands now Charis has the greatest amount of wealth locked up in manufacturing. Chisholm appears to have significant amounts of agriculture. I suspect this because Chisholm does not appear to be formed from volcanism as Charis, Emerald and Corisande appear to be. It would have greater proportion of flatter terrain as a result. So through natural geography Charis may always have to depend on Chisholm farmers for their survival. With some suggestions about labor saving products and techniques, Chisholm may rival Siddermark in grain exports. Think about it. A greater percentage of Chisholm is closer to the sea and cheaper shipping than Siddermark. So Chisholm can utilize a larger percentage of its landmass for export than Siddermark. If productivity increases occur in both places, Chisholm maintains this advantage. To offset this Siddermark would have to develop either railways or canals. This is another goad Merlin could use to foster technological progress.
The point remains the geography suggests that Chisholm will advantages Charis can not overcome and so a mutual dependency will result. There is very little to suggest the interregional strife you say must result from a purely domestic economy.
PZ, yes, and no at the same time. He’s not wrong that it could occur. But as you and I (and for that matter, he) agree, it won’t happen because the ports CAN’T be kept closed long enough.
The example he gives of the US civil war taking time to develop doesn’t hold water however. The US civil war’s “delay” was in large part because such a hot-button issue (slavery) existed from the get-go, which everybody had a strong opinion on, where such opinions were very nearly evenly split, AND which was suppressed for 30 or so years by the initial concessions given to make the initial constitution work, then strung out further by the fact that both sides wanted to keep the status quo at first. But there is no such hot-button issue for the Empire of Charis, nor were any concessions necessary to get the states to ratify the initial constitution. The only concession (if you can even call it that) is that Sharleyan is Cayleb’s co-ruler not merely his consort. And that’s not in any way something that’s suppressing a “hot-button issue”. The only real potential “hot-button” issue is loyalty to Zion. And in this issue the population is not even remotely close to “evenly split”, nor are there any concessions being given to suppress the issue for awhile. So this example simply doesn’t hold water.
The issue under discussion is trade. As long as both sides have something to trade and both sides feel they are getting a fair deal for their products, there will be plenty to tie the two parent nations (and eventually even some/many of their conquests) together. The Temple Loyalists, like the Tories of the US revolution, will cause problems, but they are too much of a minority to cause a civil war, and trade won’t be their fig leaf even if they manage to cause one. They may manage to cause some serious troubles with small-scale rebellions, but that’s another issue entirely. And as long as the mainland ports are re-opened (or the black-market springs into action) fast enough, then the exports of the Charisian manufactories will continue to keep money flowing into the Empire in a sufficient amount to keep all non-Zionist parties happy. And those ports (or the black market) WILL be opened fast enough, because the mainland is flat-out incapable of supplying the luxuries they want (at least in the quantities they want) in any other way.
RH
On Canals, I suspect that canals already exist in some of the larger Safehold mainland nations. Didn’t China have networks of canals? Canals connecting river systems could be very possible (depending on the terrian).
RH. You raise an interesting point.
Would it be better for Safehold’s technological advancement for the Empire of Charis to concentrate on a purely domestic economy and force the mainland nations to develop manufactories or to continue this psuedo co-dependant relationship with the mainland?
Which approach will usher in a broadbased technological advancement more quickly?
PZ
I was not creating an analogue to the US Civil War, in which BTW slavery wasn’t the issue until Lincoln used it to gain the moral highground over the secessionists, for whom withdrawal from the Union was the initial primary issue. The Civil War was itself delayed by prolonging the discussion of slavery in the presidencies before Lincoln, which kept things at the “we could get what we want” level for both sides until enough energy built up behind the different cultures in America (Industrialized north V. rural south) until force was the most effective solution.
Remember, the civil war scenario is how I predict a major loss could occur for the Charisian Empire and is not likely if they maintain what they’ve won.
As to ushering broad technological advancements, Charis can shoulder most of it itself. By forcing other countries to copy it, it spurs them to catch up but not exceed them because the Proscriptions will restrict their foresight unless they are openly abandoned. Charis then becomes a major source of innovation and an exporter of technology, much like the US. Thus the rest of Safehold until unification will only be as advanced as Charis lets them be.
I was using the Civil War as an analogy. And the thing is, there is a very strong underlying tension in Charis (and Chisholme, and Emerald, etc) regarding technological advancement versus the Proscriptions. The desire to be free of the Church’s corruption is the glue holding Charis together, but there are a lot of people (such as Earl Gray Harbor) who would be horrified if they realized Merlin’s ultimate goal. That, and the fact that they believe in the Archangels (despite the fact that they were anything but), could easily serve as fuel for a very nasty civil war. I think Weber alluded to that possibility early on in OAR, at least in terms of what would happen if people found out for themselves that the ‘Archangels’ weren’t coming back.
And while this may not seem like a hot-button issue, that’s mainly because the people ‘in the know’ are keeping very quiet about it. If it became public right now, it would rip Charis apart and do most of the Church’s work for it. In a scenario where a stalemate existed between the Charis Empire and the Church nations (even if it were a peaceful stalemate), Charis would have to keep things under very tight wraps, and that can only go on so long before something would have to give (exactly like the United States in the decades before the Civil War).
The good thing is that it’s almost certainly not going to happen. What Merlin has already given Charis is enough to make their eventual victory over the Church very likely – what he has yet to give them will practically ensure it.
In the long run, forcing the mainland to develop the technology to supply itself would probably be best for Merlin’s goal. Merlin isn’t seeking to make the entire planet one big Charisian Empire, eventually competition will have to come into play to get everybody involved in pushing each other to further and further innovation. But in the short term, that isn’t going to happen.
The mainland is going to have to develop technology. At least it will if it wants to win — or maybe just survive. If it continues to try to fight Charis it will have to develop military technology. If it continues to try to keep the ports closed it will have to develop industrial technology (fast) to supply local demands. If it does neither, it will lose.
Fortunately for Charis, in the short-term at least it appears that Clyntahn is more afraid of opening Pandora’s Box than the prospect of being unable to crush Charis. He can’t see that if he doesn’t develop local sources of supply for manufactured goods the tithes will tank and the black market will flourish. He can’t see that if he doesn’t admit the superiority of the galleon that he will continue to get his boys’ butts kicked. All he can see is that Charis is a threat, but he must think that God will step in and grant him victory at some point simply because he deserves it. After all, he is the “good guy” and Charis is the “bad guy”, therefore eventually God will grant him victory regardless of what he does militarily. When he (or others) realize that is false, there will be hell to pay. Literally.
After the Circle overthrows the Group of Four (assuming that actually happens, but based on the assumption there will be a 20-30 year peace after the First Schismatic War before the Second Schismatic War — or the “actual heresy war” — then I figure it has to) then things change a bit during that 20-30 year gap. At that point the idea of just buying from Charis won’t be a problem anymore, so some will just go back to buying from them. But at least some people will either A) still have sore feelings and not want to trade with Charis, or B) fear another interruption at some point, and either motive could easily lead to locals trying to at least START to develop some industrial tech to supply themselves and/or export to others. At this point I could see Charis focusing on tying Chisholm and their conquests together into a tight network that can survive without the rest of the world while continuing to trade outside its empire simply because it can, while Cayleb and Sharleyan likely lay the groundwork for the next round (that they, at least, will know is coming) with private investment. And when others start trying to duplicate their techs, the Charisians will just buckle down and try to come up with even better ones. This will probably start a bit of an “industrialization race” (instead of an arms race) which will neatly provide the push against the proscriptions Merlin needs to kick off round two a few decades later.
Or maybe I’m totally way off kilter in how it happens. But eventually the mainland will have to start developing tech, and this seems like a logical way to start the “rot”.
RH
That last was to Peter btw. Didn’t realize E and Jeff would hop in before I finished typing. Oops.
RH
@17. Jeff. That’s what makes the execution of the Inquisition agents so important. The torures visited by these agents in the course of their faithful duty was demanded of them by the Archangels. The manner Erayk Dynnys’ death was specifically stipulated by the Archangels. Yet, here we have the beginnings of a situation where the fundemental morality of the Archangels dictates are being questioned. So far the dictates themselves are not being question but their execution by mortal men. Soon, questions will begin to skirt around the edges of their basic morality or the supremacy of the Archangels over mortal men.
Where will these questions lead or end? So, your ACW hot button issue is dead on and perhaps even more poignant. That’s why its not enough for the Church nations to simply copy where Charis leads in technology. All these nations need to encourage a questioning mindset, which questions everything includuing their own faith.
Whether the best way to do this is to have Charis act as a technological drug pusher encouraging continued addiction to their tech or stand back and let the socio-economic stresses from those nations’ inability to supply the goods they need force the needed changes is an open question. Either way may work.
PZ
E, what history books are you reading? The Civil War was about NOTHING but slavery. Oh sure Lincoln wanted to maintain the Union and felt that the secessionists were wrong for withdrawing merely because he was elected, but they seceeded because he was anti-slavery. He tried (and failed) to NOT make it the rallying cry of the Union Army at first, but it wasn’t possible because it was already the issue.
The Whig party had already died and there was pretty much nothing except the Democrat party and a bunch of independents who couldn’t get their act together. There were several abolitionist movements (including many in the Northern Democrats) but nothing unified. Then came the absolutely abominable Dred Scott decision and that led within four years to the formation of the Republican Party which had as its number one “plank” the abolition of slavery. This led in part to a completion of the already-forming schism in the Democrat party where the remaining Northern Democrats felt that they could still work things out but the Southern Democrats were determined to “uphold the decision of the court” and push the spread of slavery in the territories as fast as they could, probably in hopes of outvoting the North into submission in the Senate. When Lincoln was elected (by electoral votes only and a bare plurality from the three major candidates) the South went ape and seceeded, not because they were mad about the north being more industrialized, not because they felt they weren’t getting a fair economic shake, not because they feared the population of the north, but because they were afraid of losing their slaves. All one has to do to figure this out is to read the constitution of the Conferdacy and the commentaries on it (but please try not to puke at the way they twisted scripture to justify slavery).
As for Charis not being able to hold onto its conquests, if they acclimatize them to the Charisian culture (and give them good government) and the Circle official grants dispensation for the Church of Charis to stay separate (until the actual “heresy” starts showing up, of course) then 20 or 30 years of good rulership by Cayeb and Sharleyan will be enough to get the subjects to go along. A very few may still cling to loyalty to Hektor but most will have gotten over it within a decade or so. Especially the new generation that never even knew him. You’re used to thinking like somebody who grew up in a republic where if anything is even slightly wrong you get to yammer about it and the government has to at least let you and often listen to you as well. This is not such a government. Cayleb and Haraald and co. have known they have to prepare for that day, but they aren’t in any hurry to get there for a variety of reasons. This is one of them.
Jeff, provable heresy would be a hot-button topic, but my point was that this isn’t a simmering topic that will boil over in time. It’s a theoretical issue but it’s also a non-issue because it is being done in secret. For now. I suspect that once Calculus begins to be accepted (and have been in use for decades) that then somebody will “discover” that the Ptolemaic theory of the heavens is bunk. And since they’ll be able to prove it, and they’ll be able to prove it with mathematical formulas that everybody knows are correct, there will be far less backlash than there would have been otherwise. At least in the Charisian Empire. And that will then lead to somebody saying that if the Writ is wrong in that one area what else is it wrong in? And that’s when the real mess begins.
RH
Robert,
I suspect you are putting the cart before the horse. These are religious people on Safehold. They think in religious terms first. How do you get them to question their choices? Frame the issue in religious terms.
So to get them to begin addopting a scientific meathod approach to tech, you must first provide them with a moral/religious framework in which TO question. This process begins with questioning the supreme authority of the Church which has grown corrupt. It then spreads to questioning the wisdom of Archangels who DID NOT foresee this potential corruption and plan accordingly. It ends with the fundemental belief that faith is strictly between God and the individual, even if it means the individual refuses to believe or acknowledge God.
Until such a framework is in place, no scientific revolution is likely on a global level.
PZ
Well, yeah, PZ, but the point is that this already exists in Charis. Hmm wait a sec, which post are you responding to? I’m going to assume you are responding to my response to Jeff in 21, if I’m wrong here this isn’t going to make much sense… Anyway, the idea that this already is well along the way in Charis is what I was thinking when I was responding to Jeff. The supreme authority of the Church is already dead there (mostly, at least). Over time (probably over the next few books) the wisdom of the Archangels will at least begin to be questioned. Slightly, to be sure, but it will start. And the doctrine of free moral agency is already the official position of the Church of Charis, though few fully realize all that means (yet, at least).
True, corruption takes time to bring to full fruition, but the process is well on its way in Charis, and once Arabic numerals and calculus are “de-listed” as heresies (probably early in the 30-year “truce” — or whatever — by Zion’s likely new management at that time, i.e. the Circle) then the process will begin on the mainland as well. In the meantime Calculus (which will appear perfectly fine because it is truth after all — so far as we know at least) will begin to become well used. That’s “wisdom” that didn’t come from the Archangels, which will also begin the rot of their fundamental respect and authority. For that matter just the Arabic numerals are a seed of yeast in the dough as well, as that’s also wisdom that didn’t come from the Archangels and anybody with half a brain can tell in only a few seconds flat is far superior to what was provided.
Once that is fully accepted then the proof that something in the Writ is provably false can come along, and it will cause shock waves but people will already be so used to thinking in terms of algebra and calculus that they will be able to do the math themselves (and won’t even think about the fact that the math they are using wasn’t approved by the Archangels) and prove the contention is true. So there will no doubt be some grumbling and worry but by that point people’s thinking will have changed enough that they can accept that part of the truth. But then the logical extension of “well what else is false?” will probably be the breaking point where everything blows up again.
Now just in case you were responding to 18 instead… that doesn’t mean you can’t have an industrialization race without the scientific method. You can’t have things go very far, no, because nobody is willing to violate the Proscriptions. But you already have such a race in Charis without any intention of violating the Proscriptions, and the same can occur elsewhere as well, just as soon as people realize they have no choice but to do so or become completely dependent on Charis in every way.
RH
Get a grip, people! Brief comments on the likely future progress of the story at hand and the effect on the characters involved is interesting to read. Long, involved, rambling comments dragging in the Cold War, the
Civil War, Romans and Carthaginians, Greeks and Persians, or any other religious/political/military conflict to advance dubious points is tedious. Please THINK and edit. Be concise. Even Weber couldn’t believe some of these notions. Thanks. Had to get that off my chest.
So much learned discourse.:)
In the end, it is just what DW himself said, through his character Nahrmahn, the real struggle is already over. The djinn has escaped the bottle. What is going on here is the shaping of the aftermath.
Consider what would happen if the Church were totally successful. The blockade would effectively be an embargo, Caris would starve much like th South in the American Civil war or Japan in WW II. Eventually they are forced to come, hat in hand, to the Church, giving up their rulers as lambs for the sacrifice. The Church moves in and installs a caretaker government that dismantles all the industrial development. Much blood is shed. Many Edicts are read. Eventually its over. Then what?
In a generation, or two, there will arise another voice, in another place, which must be quelled. But this time the nations have seen what happened to Caris, then Chislom, and so on. The Church cannot take a back seat and move the players quietly. The painfully clear superiority of Caris’ Navy generates a revolution in ship design, with its attendant demands for various goods. Cannon making leads to metalurgy. Even if water powered spinning and weaving is outlawed, the concept of industrial textile manufacture is impressively profitable. Standardized parts and assembly lines are easy to understand, but revolutionary in so many ways.
The industrial revolution will out, and with it, an engineering mindset, which has no use for religion in the workplace. The Writ teaches a good deal of practical medicine, but what happens when someone inquires into why certain things work. There in is another point. The next great schism may come from inside the Church, a la Martin Luther. We already know of factions within the Inquisition. One of them might bloom.
All this ignores three major factors, Merlin, The Order of Zherneau, abd whatever AI has been hiding under the Church basilica. That is what we pay writers to deal with.;)
J
RH-23. I don’t quibble with your logic. Unfortunately, all the proofs in the world doesn’t discount a religious person’s argument that since God and the Archangels said not to, They had a good reason. This thread of reasoning would resonate with quite a few of current Safeholder, including Charisians.
That argument has to be undercut first, before any universal (even more broadly in Charis) scientific revolution takes place.
PZ
It’s hardly limited to Safehold. Even in the United States of today, there are a lot of Christians who believe that every word in the Bible is literally true, for example, against all logic and evidence. So it isn’t difficult to believe that the percentage of people who believe the Writ and such is similarly true would be _much_ higher in Safehold, even in a country like Charis.
Of course, Jeff, believers would counter that there are a lot of Americans who against all logic and evidence believe that evolution is true, despite the massive holes in the theory you could drive a Mack truck through…
Faith, regardless of whether it is in a scientifically unprovable religion or a scientifically unproven theory, is not something that can just be assaulted, regardless of how logical the argument. Even if the argument is absolutely 100% accurate, when somebody feels under attack you’ve lost any chance to convince them.
Which is why I give the scenario I do. If the faith is in fact in a false idea, you have to nibble around the edges and slowly undermine it, a direct assault will completely fail 90+% of the time and 90+% of the rest of the time it will be a nasty fight. And then you better have some absolute proof waiting in the wings for once the rot has started to set in. Whether it is what Weber has in mind or not, of course, I can’t say. Probably not, given that he’s the master and I’m the peon drooling over when the next snippet comes out. But something along those general lines will have to play out eventually.
RH
P.S. Please note I am NOT trying to start that argument up. Just giving an example…
RH
Interesting note: The familial structure often espoused by religions works in the context of how families form for the time.
i.e. Pre-Industrail Mother + Father = Children (Average of 6 born, maybe 4 survive in good times)
Children = Retirement plan + labor (soon to become major spending item instead after child labor bans).
This model makes sense because most people don’t live past 60-70 (on Safehold, Earth average for pre-industry was around 50) and thus are more focused on developing lifestyle for the ones they leave behind
For modern times, especially in the US and Europe: Spouse optional, retirement and income through job (US: Often serial polygamy through constant divorce and remarrying). Average of 1-2 children (New reproduction average in US is 1.6 for citizens as of 2008).
While the modern take on marriage might seem willful, random, and underproductive, it actually makes sense if one considers the focus on individual economic development. Children, for example, are no longer sources of income but rather the most conspicuous form of spending; thus parents satisfy their desire for children with only one or two children because their odds of surviving are significantly bettered by modern technology. The religious matrix which was created to enforce the family system falls away because improved odds of surviving and the widespread flow of resources allows smaller families and even single-parent families to get by; with the caveat that the same flow of resources may also be restrictive enough to prevent new families from starting out of sheer expense (weddings, etc.). Because of the sheer practicality of the non-nuclear family in modern times, a lot of the conservative/religious arguments about divorce, cohabitation, and single-parenthood are simply over what the definition of ‘family’ is and how government should act because of it.
(Not to start some kindof argument, but gays are also more acceptable in a society where individualism and non-religious family structures are the norm because they don’t really interfere with a prosperity focused society as opposed to a growth-focused or survival-focused one)
Speaking of parenthood: Abstinence, in ye olden days, until marriage was easy, given that the average marrying age was between 13-16. Since kids are now sequestered in schools until at least 18, the sheer biological weight of all those developing hormones requires more willpower to resist and therefor often isn’t; especially in an environment where the opposite sex is everywhere. Much as the Church wants a return to older values, new practices make things too difficult for religion to deal with the modern context of how things are done unless they change their values.
Just my two-cents on religion, in the context of family, and how it is followed or not followed based on practicality.
Jeff Ehlers, as far as people taking the bible for literal worth, it seems to me that very often it’s simply a case of people not believing that it could be false. It takes effort to support illogical arguments, but none at all to simply believe in them. It also takes none at all to discount them, something called the “This is bloody stupid” mechanism of the human brain.
Still, logic is not always the tool one needs to understand.
RH – you just became the poster child for the argument about how people discredit science because it doesn’t fit their version of reality that Jeff made regarding religion vs science.
To state that evolution has enough holes in it that you can drive a mack truck thru it tells me you don’t understand the theory of evolution, and probably don’t want to. That you, like an average Safeholdan or the Catholic church vs Galileo, are able to ignore or discount reams of physical, tested evidence because it doesn’t fit with your world view. It’s why there’s a new flu shot every season, cause the virus has evolved.
It’s not just science, look at all the people like Mel Gibson’s father who deny the Holocaust happened.
Now if you said that evolution is influenced somehow by God go ahead. That’s not science it’s religion cause it’s untestable.
Regarding when the truth about the past will be revealed, I see the setup of the patent office as a way to detect when someone is getting close to really violating the proscriptions, or at least the ones Merlin suspects will trigger the weapons platforms. That person will be quietly told the truth and what will happen if he continues and asked to stop so that they can prep the wider population for the revelations to come.
One way I would approach doing so is to prep the tale by telling it as a mythological story of a war between archangels and demons, with Earth as the realm of the angels. Blend the ending of the war into the existing story of God’s creation of Safehold and it becomes easier to accept. Make it a complling enough story that doesn’t violate the existing teachings (much) so that people like it and want it to be true, then they’ll accept the overt heresy a lot easier.
If it’s not obvious in my previous post the demons are the Gababa. You modify the disagreement between Shan Wei and Langhorne as Shan Wei’s desire to use humanity for her vengence or something like that.
No, Karina, I’m not the “poster child”. I’m not making an argument for or against evolution, I’m giving an example. My point is to show that there can be no rational discussion of such a topic between people on opposite sides of such an issue with strict application ONLY to the fact that this is why Merlin has to be so painstakingly careful in everything he does on Safehold.
Your response is an excellent example of my point. You felt (or at least acted like you felt) your beliefs were under attack and lashed out in complete ignorance of either my beliefs (which I did not give) or my point (because your emotions engaged before you had a chance to notice it).
My statement was giving an example of lashing out from the other side of the argument than you or John are at least acting like you champion. I on the other hand am trying very hard to avoid actually championing either side, because this is neither the place or the time for such a discussion. There was a reason I so carefully phrased it as a hypothetical (“Of course, Jeff, believers would counter”), and then turned around and went even further by carefully pointing out that I was not trying to start this debate up, but merely to make an example. I was not intending to engage your emotions, and I’m sorry that I failed in that. I do NOT want to start a flame war here, and when you throw real-life religion/science conflicts into a thread like this you’re extremely lucky if you escape merely slightly crispy.
RH
@ RobertHuntingdon (re 21)
You write “E, what history books are you reading? The Civil War was about NOTHING but slavery.”
Since the war started with Lincoln’s call for the states to send troops to recapture Fort Sumter. I would answer “any history book that quoted Abraham Lincoln on the war”
And Lincoln answered this question definitively. In Lincoln’s “Letter to Horace Greeley”, August 22, 1862 (in any good history) he states:
“My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause.”
Any questions???
Thank you Wyrm, for that. I actually hadn’t noticed his response since the religion bit caught my attention. Still, we should not antagonize each other unless it’s really, really fun so try to ask if the potential conflict will be so (if it’s for both sides, this is a bonus) and not denegrating in a significant sense. :)
As to your information, yes it is correct.
@ 32 : Good job, hadn’t thought of the patent office being used in a preventative role yet. I imagine that at some point Merlin might be asked to invent some old-earth military cuisine (MRE, yum yum) as a means of helping out with the logistics of feeding a military.
Menu at the Communist Cafe:
Bolshevik Burgers
Marx Malts
Gulag Greenbeans
Stalin Shakes
Putin Pasta
Lenin Lemon Pie
Socialist Sushi
Hammer and Popsicle
The Peoples’ Sandwhich (Bread on Bread)
Iron Curtain Chicken
Siberia Slushees
Mao’s Meat Surprise (Taste varies from person to person)
Vodka a la Gorbechov (Vodka on Vodka, 1 gallon serving)
Big Red
Karina,
I agree with how the patent office will warn Merlin and the Charisian Inquisition (Father Payter Wylsyn) of impending transgressions against the proscriptions and/or trigger the KEW platform.
I can’t say how much I disagree with your suggestions about creating a history of the Terran Federation parable. If Merlin et al can’t state the truth don’t state anything at all. The worst thing our conspiritors can do is make even the smallest lie. The Church is based on a lie. Charis should be based on the truth. They may need to avoid candor but never should they lie about even the smallest particular regarding any disagreement with the Church.
As soon as they do, there is no distinction between Charis and the Church. The choice of Safeholders will fall back to Shan Wei and God, where does one’s faith lie?
Creating such a parable to sidestep the false Church history is akin to the Muslim tenet of allowing lies to be told to non-believers. It sets in a person’s craw and festers, regardless about why it may have been instituted in the first place perhaps even for admirable reasons. Charis/Merlin should avoid such situations like the plague.
PZ
Guy’s the civil war comments are not quite accurate:
The issue of the Civil War was: State’s Rights. Specifically does each state have the right to choose if it is a slave state, so in an indirect (But very real) way the war was about slavery.
The civil war coming to Safehold isn’t like the American civil war in my mind, it would more like the conflict in Ireland. I say this has a person largely ingronant of that conflict.
Wyrm, thank you for proving my point. My point was that Lincoln tried (desperately) to make it about anything else he possibly could. He used every trick in his book including public statements that he knew weren’t entirely accurate but that he had to try anyway. But he couldn’t accomplish his goal, because the was started not when his troops tried to recapture the fort but when the South seceded over the fact that he was anti-slavery. A war doesn’t begin when the first shot is fired. The war begins when the first act of war occurs, which doesn’t have to be executed by an army. It can be a declaration of war, it can be a declaration of rebellion (as in both the Declaration of Independence and the Southern states’ similar declaration), it can be a terrorist act, or any sort of other act of war you want to name.
Kenny, if the Dred Scott decision had not occurred first, you’d be 100% right. But it did happen first. That decision all-but nullified the 10th amendment by completely giving the slave states their pipe-dream-wish-list on a silver platter AND taking AWAY those rights from the non-slave states and territories. As a result, they couldn’t withdraw over states’ rights. They already had complete control over everything they could want. Their only excuse for leaving was because they saw a potential of losing that complete control over the territories and the north.
RH
Again, the civil war in Charis scenario was only hypothetical. They don’t even have the slavery issue to deal with to any significant degree, being the most free nations as far as not having so much serfdom goes.
On a different note, I recall there being something about a lightning stick or something impressive that some “angel” used in front of an Adam; wonder whatever happened to THAT holy artifact… hope it’s not built into any Schuelerite regalia.
Otherwise the other artifacts we can probably expect to be hiding around would be truth stones, a control center for the KE Sats, heck, maybe the Hamilcar is buried under the Church (as opposed to deep-fried in the star).
@28: The point is that when people become emotionally invested in a belief – regardless of what that belief is or anything else – they are seldom willing to even consider alternatives to it, no matter how logical they are. So you’re exactly right that it will have to be weakened first.
—-
Regarding establishing a ‘modified’ mythology, I completely agree that it would be a disaster for them to simply substitute another lie for the Church’s. If such a thing is to work at all, it has to be completely truthful. That doesn’t necessarily mean that it has to fully truthful – look at the number of things Merlin has left out so far!
And that, of course, is how they could get away with modifying Safeholdian creation myths. They tell the truth, that Safehold was established specifically because the human race was in danger of annihilation by ‘beings from the stars’. But Langhorne, the leader of those who were assigned to govern the last survivors of the human race decided to subvert his mission; instead of protecting them and ensuring that they would be able to grow strong and defeat the Ghaba at a future date, he acted solely to preserve his own power and chose to keep the human race weak and subservient to him and his councilors.
Only a few were willing to stand against his tyranny and attempt to preserve their original mission, including Shan-wei, but he chose to slaughter them as an example to the rest of Safehold. It was only by the actions of Kau-yung that he was kept from further cementing his hold on the minds and hearts of the people of Safehold.
You see? Every word there is completely true, even if they leave out some of the specific details. Dunno if something like this is gonna happen, though.
@ RobertHuntingdon (39)
I can hardly see how Lincoln’s stating that the war was about Preserving the Union and only Preserving the Union proves that it was about slavery. This can scarcely be considered a logical argument.
There are numerous letters, speeches, etc, repeating Lincoln’s views. After the emancipation proclamation, Lincoln wrote a “Letter to James C. Conkling” August 26, 1863 (again, found in any good history) where he states:
“You say you will not fight to free negroes. Some of them seem willing to fight for you; but, no matter. Fight you, then exclusively to save the Union. I issued the proclamation on purpose to aid you in saving the Union. Whenever you shall have conquered all resistence to the Union, if I shall urge you to continue fighting, it will be an apt time, then, for you to declare you will not fight to free negroes.”
Throughout Lincoln’s speeches and writings, the war was always fought for one purpose – to preserve the Union. There is no question that Lincoln, as an individual, rejected slavery, but whenever he discussed the purpose of the war, he always spocke about preserving the Union. You can even argue (as one reference book I have suggests) that the Civil War/War between the States was an argument about a verb. Should you say “The United States is …” (putting the Union above the States) or “The United States are …” (putting the States above the Union).
Of course, if you can find quotes where Lincoln says the purpose of the war was freeing slaves, then you may have a case, but I have not seen any Lincoln quotes that support your argument.
*sigh*
The root cause of the Civil War was indeed states’ rights. Specifically, one right – the right of a state to decide whether slavery was legal in it.
The Dred Scott decision convinced many, both Northerners and Southerners, that slavery could be made legal even in states which had previously declared it illegal. It certainly did so for the non-state territories, providing justification for that belief. Similarly, the Southern states believed that Lincoln and the Republicans would trample over their right to decide that slavery was legal in the South, which is why they seceded shortly afterward.
Can anyone honestly say that there would have been a Civil War if slavery had never taken root in the United States to begin with? Considering that most of the events which led up to the Civil war were directly related to slavery, I’d say not.
That’s why this argument of “states’ rights vs slavery” is kind of pointless. Slavery was so integral to the dispute between North and South that you can’t separate it out. But at the same time, the North probably would not have been willing to militarily force the cessation of slavery in the South (nor the South to military force the adoption of slavery in the North), regardless of what the firebrands thought. The same applies to states’ rights (Northern states would have likely been horrified at the thought of marching in and forcing other states to do as the majority wanted, because of the precedent that would set).
So, in fact, to say that the war was primarily over either states’ rights or slavery would be a non sequitur. The real reason for the Civil War was because people in the South felt threatened by the North’s growing political and economic power. It eclipsed their own to the degree that they feet they would soon be marginalized in terms of the direction the country was taking.
If this had not been true, they would not have gotten so worked up over the expansion of slavery in the territories, nor would they have used the states’ rights argument to attempt to override the rights of the Northern states. In the case where the laws of two states are in conflict like that, it has to be resolved by the federal government. The South was afraid that if the North got enough political power, they would be able to ensure that any such conflicts would be resolved in favor of the Northern states.
In other words, it was the sectional divide between North and South that was the primary cause. Slavery was a symptom, and states’ rights were a rationale. Were it not for the huge sectional (and just as important, regional) gap between the two, neither slavery nor states rights would have been important enough to cause a break.
Our Civil War was about slavery. There is an overwhelming body of information on this. Lincoln, oddly enough, was willing to protect slavery to preserve the union, but his proposals were not taken. And several centuries after Charis has won, there will be Clyntahn apologists claiming the schism was over Clyntahn’s dietary habits, not about Merlin’s efforts to bring Safehold into the modern world, and, by the way, Langhorne was right because those medieval-tech-level Charisian level people really loved their church masters and hated the progress that Charis brought them.
Having said that, we appear to have forgotten the obvious, namely taht teh fabulous Charisian spy net has in advance recovered all the documents naming exactly who carried out the massacre, including I propose the poor SOB who did not have anyone killed — an omission corrected by a local superior — but was positive that it would be a career enhancing move to lie and claim he had killed Charisian heretics.
The Emancipation Proclamation is very different from any other document created by Lincoln in that it is very specific about the liberation of certain slaves (Not any slaves in the North, btw) and was specifically meant for slaves from the South to aid the north for freedom. The freeing of all slaves came about as a matter of course once the moral high-ground had been taken (also keeping Britain from supplying the South against the Union although as a matter of foresight they had the brains to start buying cotton from Egypt as stockpiles in advance so they didn’t really have anything at state except maybe pruning back American development [and on the other hand the North was stabilizing the UK region by taking in all those starving Irish]).
When Lincoln first got into office, it was most practical for him not ot emancipate the slaves. When the war started, it then became practical for multiple reasons. Thus, like religious wars, spheres of influence, and the use of assassination, practicality is the most essential motivator.
Think of it like a game of chess. For the first move, one might think that there are 20 good moves to be made (16 moves possible for pawns, 4 for knights) but when one considers that some result in bad posturing then one finds that the best moves limit ones choices for putting one in the best position. A chessmaster therefor will follow the best possible moves and be highly limited in what he chooses to do until the opening arrives for that brilliant master stroke that turns the game in his favor.
The same thing applies to politics, and if you don’t believe me, look at how Russia switched from a former superpower that attempted industrialization to a rising power that’s focused on resource provision. They went from competing unsuccessfully with the US over technology to selling raw materials because they had more effective sources of raw material than effective sources of competitive technology. Russia’s current focus now seems to rebuild the old Soviet Bloc nations as buffer zones to foreign influence. To that end, they invaded Georgia for the pipeline but also because Georgia as a buffer zone limits foreign access to their west-central plains region. They destabilized the Orange Revolution in Ukraine as a means of keeping that nation unstable and out of NATO so that their westernmost flank wouldn’t be exposed. All in all, Russia’s efforts are likely to be useless given that the effort and resources they pour into their former bloc will lose momentum and money as soon as (by 2020-2030) the US has developed enough non-hydrocarbon technology to cut its dependence and will have started another cold war once Russia rears its head too high. When that happens, Saudi Arabia goes wahooney shaped, oil prices drop, and nations that need oil will still buy but will also be buying the technology to cut their dependence from the US. At the point where Russia’s ability to export resources loses profits, their efforts to reassert their power becomes what kills them as a power. From there, Russia becomes unstable and the stable nations in the regions (probably Poland and Turkey) will start to expand their spheres of influence; not out of ambition but in self-defense of their economies.
Before you argue about France and Germany, they are essentially what makes NATO a paper tiger without the US, having opted out of engaging troops on behalf on NATO although they will send supplies. Frankly, western europe seems to be tired of war and doesn’t have the mentality or interests to do anything but rest on their laurels as the former center of the world.
Anyways, back to Safehold.
Given the way the first industrial revolution worked, Charis is going to see a lot of influx into cities from the countryside once the need for menial labor rises. If Charis is to maintain standards of living, they should probably create an interstate highway system to facilitate cross-country shipping and city access. This will have the effect of promoting suburbs (and probably fast food chains) for the basic living areas and will also help logistically with the military.
I am reduced to reading parallels to the Civil War and speculations on a Charisian suburbia with it’s fast food restaurants on the side of a pseudorenaissance interstate highway for my amusement for want of another snippet. Please … “Please, sir. Could I have some more?” Wonder who’ll identify the quote. Btw, I don’t think I could stand to read the series if someone spontaneously invents a fast food chain to go into the book. I simply can not imagine how it could be credibly woven into the plot of the story. It’d turn downright corny.
I bet we could spend the next few snippets arguing about what the paramount cause of the Civil War was without getting anywhere. We certainly haven’t made much progress convincing each other.
So if intelligent and rational people like us can get into an endless argument over something like this, is it any surprise that people (Safeholdians, for example) who take something purely on faith could get in one as well? I mean, when it comes out that Merlin (and by extension Charis) was ultimately aiming to demolish the Proscriptions and denounce the ‘Archangels’.
With luck, though, enough of the idea of free thinking and debate will have taken hold by then to keep Safehold from immediately exploding into a war that will make this one look quiet and tame by comparison.
Charles Dickens, wasn’t it Alejo?
I think E was trying to make a joke with the fast food stuff, tho. At least I sure hope he was.
Jeff I think you’re right, time to call a truce and then watch the seconds slowly tick away as we anxiously await 10 more minutes to pass so we can finally get our fix.
RH
RH: Dickens it was, Oliver Twist, to be precise. It’s one of those books you read once, decide it’s one of your faves and then put it down forevermore because it is so, so sad. I wonder if anyone has written a Science Fiction book using Oliver as an architype. I’ve seen plenty of would-be Fagins. Good thing we got our fix. I’d hate to launch us into this sidethread.
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